Mark Trinham: Building Sustainable Art Practice Through Environmental Values and Collaboration

Mark Trinham

Nigel Rawlins: Mark, welcome to the Wisepreneurs Podcast. Can you tell us something about yourself and where you're from?

Mark Trinham: Thanks Nigel. Mark Trinham. I've been living on the surf coast of Victoria, in Jan Juc for 35 years now. and that's about an hour and a half drive southwest of Melbourne. I grew up on the Mornington Peninsula, which is around the other side of Port Phillip Bay. So I've done a bit of a loop around the bay.

I had a strong interest in art when I was in year 11 at a tech school. And that took me to doing my year 12 at Frankston TAFE doing art and design. I chose the stream of graphic design as I really loved the graphical element to art but also the commercial opportunities that were available as a graphic. designer.

And then I went to Chisholm Institute of Technology in Caulfield for three years, did a diploma in graphic design and majored in illustration. Straight outta there into a graphic design studio in Fitzroy, this is before computers, so just before computers there was a lot of studios around that had a variety of clients that were doing graphic design advertising layouts, all of that sort of reproduction work for their clients in a studio which was a shared space of various artists of different skills, creating works. Um, yeah, so I did that for 12 months straight outta university and, uh, yeah, when computers came in that 12 months, clients sort of got in-house designers, a lot of graphic design studios started to downsize.

So, I ended up being retrenched and followed my passion of being an illustrator, and yeah, moved into illustrating books and then shortly after that set up a clothing company called Blue Earth. I got involved with environment groups in Melbourne Rainforest Action Group, friends of the Earth, 

Primarily an activist group stopping the destruction of rainforest in tropical Borneo and other countries. That sort of drove me to, I linked up with another guy and we created a environmental clothing company, and marketed that through the surf Industry. So I had a clothing company set up and I was only 21 at the time, so I had all that schooling and university and, um, experience under my belt.

And the surf industry brought me down to the surf coast and I already had some, artist friends down here and the arts community was quite vibrant and I found my place and I've just felt like I've flourished down here. So yeah, I did the clothing company for about five years. In 1995, had the opportunity to work on my first public art project, which was a large mosaic sundial in Torquay and as a collaboration with other artists. And from there moved on to painting murals and um, one of the artists I worked on at the sundial, Glen Romanis, we ended up continuing to work and diverged into more of a, a sculptural, form of public art, wood carving and stone carving and eventually metal work.

And we have been doing that, together as a collaboration for 30 years now.

Nigel Rawlins: That's a long time. So, when you first started with your graphic design, you're actually talking about illustrating by hand and coloring by hand.

Mark Trinham: Yes, when I went through, Chisholm Institute of Technology, there was one computer in the whole graphics department, and that was only used for typesetting, doing text. Obviously, computer programs for graphics flourished, in the following 12 to 18 months, and that's when, people had graphic programs on their computer, and even then things like Illustrator and Photoshop, they, they weren't conducive to illustration at the time, and they've become so much more easier. And of course now with AI you can just punch in a couple of words and you've got an illustration.

So, yeah, my background is in the hand drawn illustration, whether it's painting, drawing, lino prints, etching, it's quite broad.

Nigel Rawlins: And we should point out that you actually make your living from art all this time. You are a full-time artist.

Mark Trinham: Yeah, that's right, well, I basically had to say yes to everything back in the day, when I was emerging as a freelance artist. And look, I did have a couple of part-time jobs back then, but I'm talking about, the last 30 years I have been working full-time, a hundred percent commissioned work, to a point where Glen and I set up a company, which is probably 15 to 20 years ago.

We set up a company and have had employees in the production of large scale public art sculpture works.

Nigel Rawlins: So let's talk a little bit about public art And then we'll start having a look at some of your other mediums that you, you've worked in and progressed in that. So tell us what is public art?

Mark Trinham: Well, basically it's art that's in the public space. And when I said public space it could be, you know, council parkland. It could be in a school, it could be in a library or a museum or, anywhere that's, that's the public has access to it and that public art we try and integrate into a landscape.

So, a lot of our clients, have a landscape architect who is the middle person between the client and ourselves as artists. And we will work with them in the design process. And we will aim to integrate our artworks into the environment and into the space. So it's not just, a sculpture on a pedestal that's plunked in the middle of somewhere.

So that branches off into functional artwork, whether it's meeting place seating, it could be drinking fountains, it could be play items in play space. Glenn and I started creating nature play, spaces 25 years ago and sort of before nature play was really a thing.

And it has expanded dramatically since then, over time. And of course working in a public space with councils, there's so much new development, housing development going on that those public spaces within any, housing development will be created and um, paid for by a developer.

But will in two years after completion  will get handed over to council and it becomes a council public space. So we deal with councils, we deal with the client, which may be, a developer and landscape architect.

Nigel Rawlins: That's a lot of collaboration when you think about it, isn't it? 

Mark Trinham: Well, then you've gotta add in engineering and public consultation and research and we do a lot of work in close consultation with traditional owner Aboriginal corporations and we've always been pushing that collaboration and the message that we put across in our artwork is, connection to the land and connection to country, whether it is an indigenous Australian story or whether it goes back even before that. So, you know, we're, we're talking about looking at geology and natural history that goes back millions of years and what it is the essence of that place, and especially for a housing development where you've got a whole new community coming in.

What it is that's important about that place and what is the spirit or the story of that place and what makes it special?

Nigel Rawlins: That's interesting, isn't it? Because basically as an artist and in your collaboration with Glen, you are able to see something, in a space. So how do you get your work? Are you that well known that the landscape architects say we've gotta talk to Mark.

Mark Trinham: Yeah, well, we get contacted all the time constantly, to the point where it is, there's often too much coming in that we have to make that call of, oh, okay, we can't do everything, what are we gonna pick? As a career as an artist, you get so used to saying yes to everything in your early days.

It comes a point where you realize you're still saying yes to everything, and it can be a bit overwhelming because you've probably said yes too often. So it's finding that balance, and it's finding, the loyalty to your existing clients that you've worked with for a long time.

Nigel Rawlins: So how do you, make a distinction about the sort of work or project that you want to take on there?

Mark Trinham: Well, I guess what's developed over time is that, landscape architects for example, have a bit of an idea of what the general community are looking for and what they like. And a lot of examples of that work is the work that Glen and I will produce and they might start designing their own sculptural works, and they may approach us and say, can you make this? And in that situation we will start to draw a line because we are artists and designers, we would like to be in the project from the get go and in the concept development stage. And that's what fascinates us and learning about new places and new spaces and learning more about the natural environment through every project.

That's what gives us a thrill. And obviously we do do some of those works to help out our clients. but generally, yeah, we will prioritize the concept design and create projects rather than make someone else's idea. 

Nigel Rawlins: What sort of timeline is involved in that If they bring you in at the beginning?

Mark Trinham: Some projects could go two or three years because if we're talking about a large development that's got a large civil works footprint that needs to be created, obviously the design process has to start early 'cause it needs to be right there at the start. But you know, when it comes time to actually place our works in the landscape, there's a whole lot of other work that needs to be done before that.

Sometimes it could take two or three years from initial design to completion and then there might be following stages, like some projects we've worked on have various stages. So every couple of years they might open up another stage so it could go on for a decade.

Nigel Rawlins: That's incredible. So how big are some of these, um, constructions that you put in?

Mark Trinham: Well, yeah, anything that we've created, in our workshop we'll need to most likely leave on the back of a crane truck and get craned into position. You know, we've done works that are six or seven meters high. We try to use reclaim materials as much as possible.

For a long time we've been using the old pier pylons outta Port Phillip Bay which we're class one durability, amazing timbers from, you know, old growth forests that have been in the water for 150 plus years. They're still incredibly durable, strong timbers. We have the ability to create tall structures with those beams and other pieces in steel can be quite large and heavy as well. So, yeah, and, and it, we've also created, um, uh, gosh, about 13 years ago, we created some works up near on the edge of the Simpson Desert in the Diamantina Shire and one of those works was created on the side of a messa, which is a flat top, low mountain or a hill.

And yeah, this artwork was 80 meters long by about 20 meters high, and it was created outta different colored gravels that were quarried within that shire. So we had red, black, white, and yellow to work with. And we interpreted, the story of some local traditional owners under their guidance.

And, yeah, we created this work at that scar, which is you, you can actually see it on Google Maps if you zoom into Betoota. Um, you can, you can see it.

Nigel Rawlins: That's pretty amazing. And this is all about your, your love of the environment.

Mark Trinham: Well, absolutely, yes, when I talk about this there's an aspect of art that you can talk about, but really what is driving the art is the bigger picture for me, the bigger story. And, you know, from a young age, I started to understand and appreciate the environment.

I grew up on a farm and we had bushland across the road. I used to spend a lot of time in that space and getting to know the flora and fauna. And then I think that leads to a greater understanding, but a great love of the natural environment, especially in indigenous landscape.

When you create that level of love for the environment, you absolutely want to protect it. And so I use my art as a voice to communicate what I know and, what others know as well, about the natural environment and how we can protect it. And I think the easiest way to protect it is to nurture other people's appreciation or understanding and love of the environment.

So that comes through in my work all the time. I won't compromise that if someone asks me to create works that was honoring environmental weeds or farm animals or something like that. I just don't go there. But, I really feel like that greater sense of understanding is something that is bigger than my art practice.

Nigel Rawlins: It really is interesting when you talk about that, 'cause many, many years ago as a teacher and I taught out in country schools, one teacher schools and things like that. Often I might only have eight or nine kids. One school I was at, I think I only had eight kids, and it was in a valley and stuff like that.

It's a very different environment to grow up in compared to say a a little kid who grows up in the city and, you know, they only see gardens and maybe a park with trees in it. So that, that gives you a very different perspective on the world, doesn't it?

Mark Trinham: Yeah, absolutely, so it's the same as art, you know, there's ways of seeing, and the same with understanding your place, your space, your environment is, how to see it. To get outside to observe those birds and animals, the seasons, the weather.

And I noticed that living in suburbia, we've got a property up in Northern New South Wales in the rainforest, in, in the, in the bush there. And, and when go and camp up there and you spend a lot more time outdoors, the weather's obviously more conducive to it, but you know what the moon's doing, you know, what the seasons are doing.

Yeah, we are not so much trapped indoors as we are on the south coast of Victoria when the weather's not so great so often.

Nigel Rawlins: That's really important because I think, even though I'm in a little country town, unless I go outside, I've got no idea what's happening with the moon. You've gotta go out and have a look. 

Mark Trinham: Yes. 

Nigel Rawlins: But at least I can get down to the bay and walk around. And there are, there's no real forests around here.

One of our last guests on the last podcast was Mayu, a Japanese forest therapy guide. Takes people outta the city and spends three hours, I think, in the bush with them. They only walk about a kilometer and a half, but she sensitizes them back into being in, in Australia, we call a forest the bush.

They just do not realize that three hours disappear very quickly, and that's what happens. And I think that's a natural environment for humans. But we, we are so, lost in the urban landscape now.

Mark Trinham: Yeah, it's interesting you say that you know, it's, they, they only walk in, a kilometer and a half. That's such a great way to do it because you can often keep walking and walking, expecting to see something bigger and grander but it's already there.

You just need to know how to look for it, and you need to look small sometimes. When we are in an urban environment there's no reason why we can't have that as well. We've created an ecosystem on our property here in Jan Juc, which is, you know, it's a, it's a small suburban block, but, you know, front yard is indigenous planting and ponds and habitatat for native animals, and the backyard is food producing.

Which gives me great joy, you know, one of my other biggest loves is gardening. I think gardening connects you to nature. And, yeah, if you have a space, and that's what we try to create with our public artwork, a meeting space where you can actually sit and gather in a natural environment and that could be in a new urban, development, but in public parkland.

And if it's done well and planted well, those species will come back and they'll be there to observe if you have the time and the knowhow to see

1. Leave your phone at home.

Nigel Rawlins: Well for professionals who's still working, unfortunately some of them are working in apartments. they don't get the opportunity to get out into their garden. I mean, I'm very lucky because my wife has local indigenous plantings at the front of our place.

So that attracts a lot of birds. And yes, our back is fruit and vegetables, but I find working in my office, after a couple of hours, I've gotta get outside and just do something in the garden just to get out of, thinking too much I suppose. Or when I write or I have to do other work for clients.

You just gotta get out into that environment and you just feel so much better.

Mark Trinham: Yeah, it's amazing. I'm, I'm very fortunate that my, sculpture, workspace is a space that I rent on a property just outside of Torquay called Ashmore Arts, where there's 30 odd artists renting spaces there from large workshops down to small art studios, design studios. So a real variety of people working there.

But we're on a property that's close to 40 acres and it has Spring Creek running through it and I get to work outdoors most of the time, which is great. And you see a lot. But yeah, there's no reason for anyone who's working out there to just walk out their door and walk for a couple of minutes and observe so much of nature.

And I see that represented in their work. And I think places like that are actually helping the conservation of our landscape as well.

Nigel Rawlins: Well, we should also say that you're not just doing these great big artworks. You've also got a lot of other art mediums that you love. So let's talk about some of those. There's a lot, isn't there that you do?

Mark Trinham: I guess that they're different mediums with a similar story. I think when we talk about the two dimensional art, obviously I've got my graphic background and I do, I still do a lot of graphic design and I've always done a lot of graphic designs for environment groups, whether it be posters, logos, brochures or signage, interpretive signage through parklands.

That's something I've always done. So that's one aspect of it. And also the illustration side of things. I generally paint with acrylic paints and I still use the same acrylic paints out of tins that I used to do murals because I understand those colors quite well. So even very small fine artworks on paper at my desk are still done with sign writer paint. 

But yeah, the illustration projects, you know, for example, I did a large project, doing wildlife collector cards for Landcare and I I guess when I started, that was in 2009 and finished it in about 2014 and produced 135 A3 sized realistic paintings of local wildlife that were then produced into collector cards and distributed through news agents and through the region with folders and maps and layouts.

And so I did all the graphic design aspects of all those layouts and posters, and also followed it up with exhibitions as well. Also a couple of years ago did a children's book based on spotted tail Quolls in the, in the Otways, written by a Otways author Ali Cork. And yeah, that was, that was a great project to do,

I think something like 50 pages of illustrations for a children's book. Yeah, also like lino prints. I also love photography as well, and of course mainly wildlife photography and landscape. That's my passion. But I do love getting out and following wildlife around with either a macro camera or a big telephoto camera lens. And then there's music. I play music as well. I had a band for close to 30 years now called Moonah, and Moonah being named after the Moonah trees that grow alongthe coast here. Always used to describe them as bent and twisted trees which is a little bit like our music.

Eclectic music with all sorts of influences from folk to psychedelic rock, to atmospheric. Yeah, just something that I just have a lot of fun with and I've got some great mates that we've been playing together for that whole time. It's been a great ride and it has evolved into other things and we have become band members of a backing band for Lucy and The Night Sky, for example, which was a nine piece band.

We've got various music projects on the go. But yeah, Moonah is the one thing that is a very creative outlet. And, you know, we don't play live very often, but we get together and we create and we record. So yeah, we just love that whole process.

Nigel Rawlins: So how many CDs have you put out on that one in Moonah?

Mark Trinham: Moonah, we've just put outour fifth CD. Yeah, it's called Ghost Country. It's an EP. Yeah, it's on all the streaming platforms. if you can't find it, type in Moonah Band and that'll definitely come up. We've got someone in America that started using the name Moonah, so that might come up, but you can definitely see that it's not us.

Yeah, so, and I, and I guess the music side of things, back in, look, it would've been about 1995, 1996, a local market started up in Torquay, the Cowrie market. Moonah as a band used to come along and play, and we used to play for like four hours and we used to play at a local cafe too on a Sunday afternoon.

Again, we used to play for about four hours. So, you know, we, we had a, we had a lot of, practice, but there wasn't that many opportunities to play. So we used to play at the market all the time. And then I had a PA and other people would come along and say, hey, can I have a go? So it's like, yep.

And I would mix them. And then it led to me running a music stage at the Cowrie market and we'd have at least five bands every month at the Cowrie market on the foreshore at Torquay. And so I then ran that stage and co-coordinated the whole market for um, 25 years. It's still going and I've, passed that baton on to another young musician and sound engineer three years ago. So, which has freed me up to do other things and concentrate on my music. But really the motivation for me to do that was to create an opportunity to play.

So then I would create these things called beach gigs. I was involved with Surf Coast Arts, which is an arts council. And yeah, I used to every summer have a couple of gigs on the foreshore in Torquay in the height of the tourist season, and we used to put on three or four bands, and I used to create these events so that I had an opportunity to play original music that wasn't mainstream, or well known.

There's no way we could get gigs at a pub. And the pub just wasn't the right environment for the type of music that we were playing. So we created these art events for music. And then that led to there was three of us that set up the Nightjar Independent Arts Festival, which was a little bit like these beach gigs I was talking about,

but on a grander scale. And so it was an arts market with food vendors and a live music stage. And so for four Thursdays in January, we would run this festival. And, I think one of our first or second event that we had we attracted 9,000 people, which blew us away. And it just, it just showed us that people were really thirsty for this um type of atmosphere, this type of space and environment to get together and meet up and socialize. Yeah, and that is still going. I did that for three years and then pulled out because my, my full-time work with the Romanis-Trinham Collaborations Companywas just too much. It became a major event, so I stepped back from that. But, you know, I feel really proud to have been part of the first few years of getting it up and running.

But, you know, just the music side of it too was just great to showcase local local, um, artists and people within the community. So I guess I've been involved with a lot of community orientated events and programs over time, because again, it supports my love of communicating the importance of community and environment and understanding your place, which helps people connect.

Nigel Rawlins: I think you also do your own sculptures as well?

Mark Trinham: Oh, look, I have done a few sculptures just for exhibitions and just things that I've done for myself. But really I just haven't had the time with my commissioned work to put into my own fine art program. But, you know, as I'm um, aging and, moving through this creative life, there's still a lot of things that I want to do. And I think one of the big pulls is to just create space and time to develop my own fine art practice and, you know, I obviously have my own voice and working for clients for well close to 40 years now. Which has been fantastic, and I've certainly had a lot of freedom in my own expression in that whole time.

I feel like I want to explore my own ideas and my own voice without the need to satisfy a client. And I think that's just important for any creative person to step back and look at what, what they've done, where they've been, where they want to head, and sort of steer that pathway, when you are busy and you have a great client base. Your creative path can be steered in a direction that may not be where you thought it might go, which is, sometimes a great thing. It takes you somewhere that you didn't even think of. But I think you get to a point where and that's where that point that I am at now is, is that I want to steer this in a direction that is going to satisfy my creative desires.

Nigel Rawlins: Look, I, I think anyone listening to us is gonna say, where the hell do you get time to do anything?

Mark Trinham: Well, yeah, well you prioritize. It's, it's, it's about priorities. So, you know, for many years the priority was work, work, work. You do get run down. You do experience burnout, you do doing all that physical work too, you know, you do end up hurting your body, and you do have to take some time out.

And I think one of the great things for me because, 'cause I did grow up with that big, a very strong, hard worth working ethic, driven into me by my, mainly my farming family, which I certainly appreciate that upbringing. You know, have having, for example, a property in the forest,

'cause I, I can go there and I can still work, I can still maintain the property, I can still do building. I, I don't sit still for very long. That's just my nature. So, I, I've probably only ever sat down and read one or two books in my whole life because I just get up and go, distracted by many other things.

I like to be active. Having that space has allowed me to absorb myself in nature. I'm fortunate that I do have some space where I can't hear cars and I can't see other buildings and, um, yeah, just living, living in the forest, in the bush and observing so much that's my meditation, that's what gives me a sense of serenity and clarity to think and dream.

Nigel Rawlins: So with your property in New South Wales, is it your plan to maybe eventually live there? And what other things did you have in mind there?

Mark Trinham: Well, I'm building a studio and that's been a bit of a dream is to have a space where I can sit in and um, I can dream, I can create, I can explore, different techniques and mediums and just be quite playful. It's something that I think when you're busy with commissions, you don't have a lot of time to be experimental and playful.

You've really just gotta knuckle down and get the job done, which, I guess a lot of us work under pressure quite well. To have a deadline is you know, helps, helps get the job done. But yeah, to have that sort of space, it takes me back to that exciting time of being at art school and experiencing new things and you are developing your mark making and your techniques and yeah, that, that's something that I feel like I would like to explore.

Obviously I've, I do have a home studio, um, here in Jan Juc for my, um, for any painting, illustration and graphics work. Uh, and I've got my big workshop space here in Torquay at Ashmore Arts, but I just I have this great excitement about having a dedicated art space that I'm not paying rent on and I can just be there and, and, and develop.

Nigel Rawlins: Well, would you say you are lucky?

Mark Trinham: Yeah. I'd say I'm absolutely lucky. Absolutely lucky. But you know, I do have to recognize that I've worked pretty hard to get to a position where I could afford property and I can afford to build a studio and that creates a lot of freedom. So, yeah, I do consider myself lucky, but I think back in the day when I sort of made that call to be an artist, or go into a creative field as my career, it was pretty daunting because everyone would tell you that you're not gonna make money out of this.

You are gonna struggle. You know, I even had an art teacher in year 11 that said, you know, be careful because, you know, artists become alcoholics and poor. And, that was a generalization obviously, but he had witnessed that and he saw that as being something of a trap or part of an example of the hardships that, artists can experience and yeah, I went through university, I know people that, would have a part-time job at university to pay their costs of getting through university and when they finish university with a diploma and looking for work in graphic design, it was hard to find work. And, you know, some people might have just continued with their work in hospitality or retail or whatever it is, and haven't had that opportunity to explore, their creative dreams.

but yes, it was jumping in the deep end and there was many years of living on next to nothing, and having people say, look, you've just gotta get a job, get a job at, you know, doing anything. You know, you have family saying go and work at the supermarket. You've gotta have a job.

And it's just like, well, I want to, and I did have part-time jobs, but I want to really push and explore where this creative career might take me. And it was trying to find a niche and find things that were unusual or different which is pretty hard with so many creative people out there. It's, you know, most things have been done.

Yeah, I, I, I guess I was fortunate that I had that drive to keep going and break through the hardship times and then come out the other side. And then of course there was 30 years of hard work to run a business and to maintain the ongoing work to keep it sustainable.

But I'm feel very lucky to have had that and to be at a situation where I can, you know, start to think and think about diversifying or slowing aspects of that down and steering that pathway into exactly where I want it to be. So, yeah, I feel like I'm in a very fortunate position.

Nigel Rawlins: You've done very well. Well, you just mentioned a special word in there. Even though it's art that you make your living from, you are running a business.

Mark Trinham: Yes, we were without any business training. So, you know, again, those early years I think naivety creates confidence and, just like the sculpture work that we started doing way back when, you know, we didn't have anyone that teach us how to build stone walls or how to 

carve timber or whatever. We, we just, and this was, this was also, before the internet. So we couldn't just Google things. We'd seek out people and work out how to do it, or you would just make massive blunders and you would learn by it. So yeah, running a business, and you're still learning, I can still do things in business and think, gosh, I should've known better.

It just happens all the time, that's just human nature. But it's having that a little bit of guts to put yourself out there and do it. Collaboration work is important for that too because you, you can collaborate with other people that are sort of, um, putting themselves out there as well.

So you can blunder together and you can learn together. You learn off people that have been successful. And getting involved with things like Arts Councils and Regional Arts Victoria, organizations like that I can highly recommend getting involved because they've got a corporate structure and they've got the administration side of things and facilitators to work with artists.

It's a great mentoring stream. So, you know, there's obviously courses you can do as well. I guess I'm steering this part of the conversation towards anyone who's thinking about getting into the arts or wanting to further their arts experienced there to to collaborate or to get involved with groups and to skill share and to learn.

Learn that side of things. But, you know, look, I had a, I started a company when I was 21 with the clothing company, and I had no idea why I was setting up a company, but I had advice that I needed to set up some, set up a company and there were people in the surf industry that were, willing to help myself develop this company and, give us some advice. Yeah, we still floundered tremendously, but, but yeah, I, I think it's finding, finding mentors is is a hugely important aspect of developing a business, especially the business side of of any arts career.

Nigel Rawlins: I think that's the big thing. A lot of our listeners are self-employed, mainly professionals and um, they're probably listening and saying, well, how do you work out how you charge for things? Because that's one of the big issues. If you undercharge, you work end up working for nothing. And the other thing is some people are frightened, oh, if I ask for too much, they won't say yes.

Mark Trinham: It's really hard, and it changes from client to client. Like, I might do a piece of work for a large corporation and get what it's worth. I might do something similar for a local environment group, who might get a small grant from somewhere and think this is a huge sum of money, but when I look at it, then it's like, well, that is, no, that's, it's not.

But I guess I give and take, you know, I'll sort of win on some jobs and I'll lose on others, but it's about who I wanna support and um, yeah, doing private jobs, for example, for people, you generally have to charge less, unless that person is a great arts appreciator know what the value of them are, but even if they do know what the value of it, they may not have the available funds.

So you've thought of gotta feel your way along and, and then I guess, you know, with, with the public artworks, you know, we can align ourselves with other trades as well. And what other trades might be getting as far as employment hourly rates, all those types of things.

So, you know, we might see what stone masons are getting or concreters are getting, cause there's all those elements wrapped up into a public artwork, or steel fabricators. Obviously, we charge for a design time on top of all of that and project management.

So it's just, again finding some mentors and people that have been there, done that to help assist. But it is, and we've found this throughout my whole arts career, that, whenever you speak to people, whether it's an insurance broker or various different organizations that are in administration or part of our culture that we need to deal with, they dunno what box to tick for arts. So, yeah, we have to negotiate and work our way through that. So it is a field of work that is, I guess it is a bit harder to navigate through the business sector.

Nigel Rawlins: And I guess in many ways getting work is the, the number of years you've put in, the quality of your work and the fact that people can see it. Being public, it is out there for people to see.

Mark Trinham: Yeah. It is out there for people to see. And you, you've gotta, you've gotta think long term too, because you know, it's out there for people to see, but in 20 years it might be looking terrible. You know, we, we have to work with maintenance programs and implement that with councils so that we make sure that it's maintained at a level that

warrants it to remain in in public is if, if it, you know, gets to a point where it's beyond disrepair or it's looking really shabby, you know, it should be removed. You know we find that with timber work, obviously timber is cheaper to produce, often, and it has been sort of the choice of, from client's point of view, but then there's a high maintenance fee.

So, you know, you create something outta stone, it's gonna be there for thousands of years. You might, get it dug up, you know, in a thousand years and people think, gosh, what went on here? As archeologists do. And you know, those materials will last a long time, but they are harder to work.

They are more expensive.

Nigel Rawlins: So Mark, how much work have you got in front of you?

Mark Trinham: I've probably got 18 months work booked up, and that is pretty normal at the moment. And, yeah, like I said, wanting to spend a little bit more time in, in my fine art, realm. So that's, you know, I'm sort of at a point where I start, I'm starting to say, no to more and to free up a bit more time.

But yeah, generally I could be booked up for 12 to 18 months 

Nigel Rawlins: You know, any self-employed professional who is like freelancers, that's basically what they're, and that's basically what you are, are, are, are listening to that and thinking they would love to have 18 months work in front of them.

Mark Trinham: Yeah. But it is a commitment, you know? It's saying yes to safeguard your future employment, but it's also committing to being busy for the next 18 months. And, you know, I've just had an unexpected hernia operation and that's just lost me a month. Well, I shouldn't say lost me a month,

I'm, at my desk for more time than I would normally be, but yeah, there's other sculptural projects that are starting to bank up and it's about managing that time. And that can be, the trap in the creative field is if there, if you are busy is, is over commitment.

And that that can tend to be the case.

Like I said earlier, when you spend the early years or decades of your career saying yes to everything, then you get to a point where you may be overcommitted and it can be hard to sort of backpedal from that.

Nigel Rawlins: Yeah, I guess one of the problems is saying yes and then not being able to deliver, and that's gonna cost a lot of money, a lot of time spent, and, uh, for a client to pull away, and not pay you, would be a disaster for some of the artists. So Mark, how do you think arts is going in Australia?

Mark Trinham: Look, I think Arts in Australia has always struggled a little bit in sense of if you make a comparison with, you know what, I've never been to Europe, but, you know, people to talk about the appreciation of art in Europe and other countries. And I think there is an appreciation of art here.

But there's also an aspect where people think that artists do it for the love of it. And, I guess art, buying art is, oh, what's the word? It's, not extravagant, but it's not a necessity. and yes, a lot of art gets bought by family and friends of artists and I think it's a very hard industry especially in the exhibition industry, to, make a living out of it.

Certainly art is appreciated. Like art, you know, when we talk about art and the creative arts, you're talking about anything that's on film, television, whether it's commercial art, graphic design, right down to fine art and design, industrial design, car designs.

You know, there's creative fields in just about everything. And, yeah, I'm not sure whether a lot of the population are aware of how those products get to where they are. But yeah, look, it's an interesting thing. I've probably got my head in the sand a little bit as far as what's going on out there in the art world

because I'm busy with my own work. and certainly if I go down the track, which I probably will of doing more exhibitions in the future, that's when I'm really gonna have to be quite savvy about how I do it. And, how to sort of play that game. But ultimately it, you know, your artwork speaks for itself.

You've gotta just keep developing your art and you need to keep progressing your art, and I think the story is what people read and see in artwork that moves them. That doesn't come easily. That comes from a lifetime of practice. And Yeah,

yeah, some uh, just admire artists that get out there and get into their studio every single day, 'cause primarily they love it and it, and it gives them such great joy. So I think, and that shows in the artwork, I guess in Australia it's, feeling comfortable and strong in yourself that, you can be an artist.

'Cause you know, from my experiences, many, many people are very critical of arts and arty farties, you know, the amount of time that I've had people sort of, I guess the judgment of people that are in, in the creative field, but, you know, you get into a creative environment like to talk about, you know, like I mentioned, arts councils or, arts precincts, and you're absolutely supported and absolutely nurtured in, in, in those environments. So I guess that's, that's my, um, message to people out there that, that want to, expand their arts career or they're emerging, or I want to get into it is yeah, find some like-minded people. That's what I found when I did my year 12 art and design at a TAFE.

All of a sudden I thought, wow, there's, there's people that think like me or that have an interest like me. And, yeah, I think that's just, it's just such an important, aspect to the arts careers too, to be amongst other artists,

and arts appreciators like, you know, arts councils are generally made up of arts appreciators and not so much, artists.

So yeah, those people are so important to our community that support the arts.

Nigel Rawlins: I think that's great advice. Is there anything else you want to say?

Mark Trinham: I guess I really want to, just share my appreciation for you, Nigel, and what you've done for businesses, but also, you know, what we've been talking like this for decades.

Gosh, we'd probably go back 30 years, you know, from when you had your print shop.

Nigel Rawlins: Probably 20 years. No, I wasn't in Torquay for 20 years, but, yeah, we should explain to people that we have been working together. I look after and manage your website and keep that updated. and we've been doing that probably 15, maybe 20 years. Most of my clients have been with me 15 to 20 years.

It's unusual, I think, for a marketing services company. But yeah, we've had these conversations and, I have to say, I admire the fact that you can make a living from this.

Mark Trinham: Yeah. Well, I guess I'm so busy with making a living out of my art that I, you know, I don't, and this is, something you've observed Nigel is how I neglect to update my website and do all that sort of thing. So that's why it's important to have someone like you, um, you know, on, on the boat to, to help

steer the marketing in that direction. So yeah, in any arts career, like we were talking about before, I'm fortunate that my work is, in public a lot, and people get to know me. But yeah, the marketing side of things is just as important and it's people like yourself that help facilitate that, that, you know, do all the, the, the background works on websites and, and, security and all those sorts of things.

Nigel Rawlins: It's another collaboration in many ways.

Mark Trinham: It is, finding, you know, as people saying business, you know, find people, that love doing the jobs that you hate and, that frees you up time to do the things that you are good at or that you want to do.

Nigel Rawlins: Well, it's getting interesting now with AI. People are beginning to find that they don't require some of these services. But I've been doing this now for 30 years. I'm still learning stuff, and I use a lot of AI. But we, we should make a a very clear point.

I'm not interviewing you for you to get new more work 'cause you don't need more work. I I want to interview you because you, you are a successful artist who's actually making a living. And that's the reason I asked how much work have you got in front of you is, you know, you don't need more work. And my, there's a podcast, uh, going out to tomorrow, I think it's number 79.

I had to ask at the end if he wanted anyone to uh, contact him because he's so busy. And, um, these are, these are the rarities where some people want to get more work, and a lot of people don't need more work because of the work they've been doing.

Mark Trinham: Yeah, that's right. But you know, I'm always open to new work 'cause you never know what's looming out there. There could be an incredible dream job. It could be something that takes you overseas. I'm not putting up a sign saying closed for business, but, just being a bit more choosy about what I take on and, you know, it's all about, not being overcommitted.

Nigel Rawlins: I'm hoping that my Czech Republic listeners are listening and the city of  BRNO, BRNO is hearing this 'cause I think that's a fabulous powerhouse, well intellectual powerhouse. So, hopefully you might get a call from someone there.

Mark Trinham: Or the, you know, there could be opportunities in the future, you know, if I wanna slow down on the big, heavy tools or whatever to do mentoring or all those sorts of things. You know, I have done teaching in the past. teaching illustration at the Gordon TAFE in Geelong and various artists in schools programs and a little bit of private mentoring.

But, yeah, and I think that's the opportunity too, is to nurture the next sort of generation of artists because I think that's why we get so much work. It's because there's not a lot of people that actually can do the research design, concept development planning, project management, construction, working with all the engineers and landscape architects and clients and deliver a large scale piece and have all your tickets for elevator work platforms and forklifts and all those types of things.

And to produce something that is generally pleasing and accepted in the community. There, there's not a lot of people doing that. It's a real niche, but it's bloody hard work to get to that point.

Nigel Rawlins: Exactly. It's the capability and the expertise that you've built up over years, but it's also your intelligence and being able to do that, which is fantastic. Well Mark, how would you like people to find you?

Mark Trinham: Well, I keep my Instagram post up to date. So that's Mark Trina, M-A-R-K-T-R-I-N-H-A-M-M for Mark. yeah, if you type in Mark Trinham, you'll find my Instagram, you'll find, my website, which is under development at the moment. We're updating that. And, also my Instagram is linked to Facebook as well, so yeah, I can be contacted. People can see, my works there. But yeah, I guess the website is really showing like a retrospective of work throughout my entire career. And the Instagram is for current posts of what I'm working on. 

We just want people to listen to Moonah and, you know, look at on your streaming service. Google in  Moonah , you'll find some old posts and things,

'cause you know, we've been going for a long time. And, um, yeah, it's, it's interesting with, um, you never know what's out there and especially this day and age with social media, we've been picked up by a, um, a, a web channel called the, uh, most underrated albums and we've got followers.

I think it's American based. But yeah, it's amazing what you discover people are looking at and listening to. And you'll find as an artist, you'll find people out there, they may not be in your immediate community, but there'll be someone out there in the world that absolutely loves what you do. So yeah, get it out there.

Nigel Rawlins: I think that's the best idea. Get it out there. Mark, thank you very much for being my guest.

Mark Trinham: Oh, thank you, Nigel.