Mayumi Kataoka: When Your Brain Needs Trees, Not More Productivity Hacks

Nigel Rawlins: mayumi , welcome to the Wisepreneurs Podcast. Can you tell me something about yourself and where you're from?

Mayu Kataoka: Yes, my name is Mayumi Kataoka. I am a certified forest therapy guide. I'm originally from Japan. I'm based in Sydney, New South Wales right now. I've been here for 25 years now. And yeah, I take people into the forest for some mindfulness walks and activities.

So 25 years ago you came to Australia. Why did you come to Australia and what made you want to stay? The first time I came here was back in 1997 as a working holiday visa, and I fell in love with this country, everything about this country. So I wanted to come back and, I came back here in 2001 with a business visa to a local IT company working as an IT Sales and Marketing Assistant. After a few years, I got my permanent resident.

And here I'm through some IT career to martial arts instructor, and then some photography, working nature, and as a forest therapy guide.

Nigel Rawlins: Okay, well let's start some of those. So you worked in IT for a little while and a, um, martial arts gym as well?

Mayu Kataoka: I was learning martial arts while I was working in an IT company. My colleague recommended to join one of the class that he was doing already, and then I also fell in love with the method. I was learning for five years. And then my teacher left the school, so I took over the school and I was running my own classes to teach self-defense from kids to adult for next four years by myself.

Nigel Rawlins: And what martial arts was that?

Mayu Kataoka: It's a mix of um, Japanese karate and Korean TaeKwonDo.

Nigel Rawlins: So you are quite formidable. And at what point did you start the photography?

Mayu Kataoka: I've always loved photography since when I was much younger because my father and my grandfather was a wedding photographer and every time I visited his place, I always played with his camera and he's got lots of films, so I used one of these film case. So we put all my treasures in.

And somehow, my mind's connecting with camera equipment. And as I got older I got my first camera, the instant camera, and then I start taking picture. That's how it started, so my passion for photography got really strong. I moved to Australia because of the beautiful natural environment.

Nigel Rawlins: Were you photographing in Japan or was it more so here?

Mayu Kataoka: While I was in Japan, my main subjects were always friends and people. But when I moved to here, it changes to nature, particularly for trees.

Nigel Rawlins: Okay, so what is it about Australian trees that you love?

Mayu Kataoka: I love the different diversity of different kind of trees living together and the resilience and the strong Eucalypts. Some of the species shed the barks seasonally and before they shed the bark, they shows amazing colors. And that color really strike me. You know, this is such beautiful colors and that's how I got really interested to take a record of the history of these trees seasonally.

Nigel Rawlins: So any particular trees or just you like all the Australian Eucalypts?

Mayu Kataoka: I love, yeah, I love Australian eucalypts. Of course I love trees in Japan, but in somehow I relate so much with eucalypts. I see my strengths. I'm learning the strengths from these trees.

Nigel Rawlins: I was recently in Japan, the Australian landscape have got very different colors to different countries like Japan, even Europe, and even England. The greens are very different, aren't they?

Mayu Kataoka: Yes. Very different, but in somehow that's S really calming to me. You think that Australian bush are like faded green compared to the other forest, but then you look closer and you see so many hidden colors in the barks and leaves. That really amazed me. So what we are seeing in a distance is just one or two colors, but when you get closer, you'll be amazed how many different colors they are showing.

Nigel Rawlins: Well, I think that's one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you about how your photography led towards forest therapy and what that means. So basically, you've been photographing and you've been selling your photographs as well?

Mayu Kataoka: I used to, not anymore

Nigel Rawlins: okay. What's happened there?

Mayu Kataoka: I used to go for, um, local markets every month and I was selling my pictures. But somehow I stopped because I wanted to do more forest therapy as a business.

Nigel Rawlins: Okay, so talk about that. Um, So you've spent a decade photographing Australian native trees, and we've just had a lot a, a conversation about what you're actually seeing, and then you've become a forest therapy guide. So you've done a very observant look at Australian eucalypts and now you are taking people out for forest therapy. So I, I think somewhere I read that you described nature as choosing you. So obviously um, the environment's got a very strong pull on you.

Mayu Kataoka: Yes.

Nigel Rawlins: We've talked about what you see through the lens and I'm assuming that was the foundation for how you guide in the forests and and we call it Bush in Australia, don't we, in the bush? that. How has your photography focused your forest therapy?

Mayu Kataoka: Okay. To find or to notice these small details or hidden colors, or hidden patterns or hidden natural beauty, you need to slow down. You walk slowly and your mind kind of wandering around in the nature. So before you seek something, nature start showing you what they have, what they are, what colors they have.

If you walk faster, you can't really notice these things. But when you stop for one thing, one by one and keep going one by one, you start really tuning yourself with the surroundings. You see more colors, you see more stories or some tiny things just you know, sign shines through the leaves, gives you like moment that's really soft, gentle light against the leaf.

That's so pretty. I wanna capture this. So these moment I really treasure in nature and, um, even though I've been, photographing, I feel so calm. Lens is just one of the window for me to see more details in nature. But even without cameras, I put my eyes close to things and see details and, discover so many things.

Anyway, so that's how I've been doing nature photography. Every time I see subject, I walk close to them and for the trees, I go around 360 degrees to find out the best angle for the trees, for them to look goodSo how, did I get to therapy guide through my photography? As I mentioned a bit earlier, the colors of the bark of the eucalypts. That was really striking and I couldn't believe that the tree was revealing so much colors, and I didn't notice. But one day the color was telling me, hey, notice me, look at my color. So that moment I got, wow. And then I was looking at some, gum trees, eucalypts on Google, and suddenly the word of forests bathing, in Japanese we say Shinrin-yoku, that was just popped in to the search engines.

When I see that word, I got light bulb,  Shinrin-yoku, this is it. I just straight away connect with the word, clicked it. This is my work. This is gonna be my lifetime work. I knew it. I couldn't explain, but I instantly knew it. And through this  Shinrin-yoku, I could tell, I could share such hidden beauties that people don't notice. Not from the photography, not from the piece of photography, but with their own eyes, with their own feelings. With their own senses.

Nigel Rawlins: I love that. What I'm thinking here is that we are so busy in our normal lives in a built up environment, cities, that we are so disconnected from nature. And what you are saying is you've gotta get them into nature. Slow down, turn off all the phones and all the distractions and try and uh, be there. I listened to a couple of evolutionary biologists biologists um, called the Dark Horse Podcast, and they wrote a book and they talk about that the forest is our natural environment from thousands of years ago. And, um, there is something about trees and leaves and the greenery that appeals to us all, but we're so busy with our lives, we're disconnected. So you have been doing this on your own for a while. So have you been taking groups out on your own for a while? How do they work? How does that go?

Mayu Kataoka: The walk itself takes three hours. But I give them a first 10 to 15 minutes, a brief introduction about the history and concept of forest bathing. And I take them for a really slow walk, very mindful walk, and then I stop them, invite them for a few different mindfulness activities.

And then we kept walking on. I normally prepare three, four different activities during the walk. And then we finish with some, tea and snacks at the end to share, what we've been through.

Nigel Rawlins: I've gotta be honest. When I go walking, I like to just and get through it. Um, I do look a bit,

Mayu Kataoka: yes.

Nigel Rawlins: Unfortunately I live in a coastal environment, so, I don't have a lot of trees it's, you know, and parts of the walk have got trees in the houses on the side. I normally put my podcast on and I've listened as I'm walking. But lately I've stopped taking the podcast and just hearing the sounds and making sure I see, I I still keep my, my speed up if I can. Though I must admit, as I get older, I'm walking slower. But you are taking people out into the bush and you're talking about the light on leaves and the canopy above. So how do they handle a three hour walk? I mean, If you are a busy city person, how do they slow down?

Mayu Kataoka: Yes. Believe it or not, they don't realize that three hours passed already because they're so tuning to with their sense. So first they connect with their sense. That's important. And then as you walk, without putting much effort, you start collecting one by one. Even though you still thinking a lot of things in your head emotionally, but as you start walking and as a guide, I guide them to direct, to notice details in the nature and they slow down.

Little bit. By the time we go, like an hour later, people are already feeling relaxed and then they seems to really enjoy engaging with their senses with surroundings. So they forget about the time, and it's not like bush walk or hiking. I don't let them to walk for three hours nonstop, so I stopped them for a while and give some activities, invite them activities for 15 to 20 minutes.

And then the heart rate goes down again, and then we go for another walk for maybe 10 minutes and then stop give another activities, invite another activities. So it's a repetition of these walks and stop activities and walks. So by the time we finish the walk, I take about 20 minutes for the last tea and tea ceremony session, but people are just amazed. Is it been already three hours, two hours and a half, and we only walked for 1.2 k?

Nigel Rawlins: That's actually not a long distance.

Mayu Kataoka: No. So the bush walk or hiking is a goal oriented or more fitness purpose. And when you have a busy mind, it reflects the way you walk, your walking pace got much faster. But because in the nature, you don't have to go anywhere. So you have more space in your mind, in your head that it's telling you it's okay to walk slow.

You don't have to go anywhere.

Nigel Rawlins: Well, I'd like to go into details a bit a bit later because one of the things I've been writing a lot lately and, um, I haven't been speaking so much on the podcast about it, but it is with, um, not only the world around us, but our inner selves as well, and hearing what our inner selves are telling are telling us us as we get a bit older. Okay, now, we've been talking about you running, Forest Minds, which was your business, but now you've joined into a forest therapy collective in New South Wales with three other guides.

Mayu Kataoka: Mm-hmm.

Nigel Rawlins: Can you tell us something about that and what working with three other people brings to forest bathing?

Mayu Kataoka: Yes. We all came from a same institution where we got certified as forest therapy guide. And all this year we worked together for Sydney Cherry Blossom Festival in Auburn Botanic Gardens, and we individually run own business, but as a group, it was the first time that few guides got together.

And provide a walk in a different time for different audience. The walk was received quite well from the audience and from the event. And we always, you know, striving to promote forest therapy more, not only for individuals but for the corporate sector because there are a lot of people working so hard and suffering from stress, anxiety, burnout, and they less motivated for what they do. So to help support overall wellness, we thought taking forest therapy as one of the wellness tools, like yoga or meditation, just be in nature for them to get more clarity and get more creativity.

Make their team stronger. For these reasons, we thought we could work together to promote forest therapy to the corporate section, and that's how it

started.

Nigel Rawlins: And it's only recent that you've established that.

Mayu Kataoka: Yes.

Nigel Rawlins: Yeah,

Mayu Kataoka: So just after the Cherry Blossom Festival we got together and hey, we could do this and that. So we just started.

Nigel Rawlins: That's fantastic. I think the world's become, especially business now, very complex with AI

Mayu Kataoka: Mm-hmm.

Nigel Rawlins: And a whole lot of shifting changes in the world. And things are not simple anymore. And we've gotta live in our heads, and work with our heads, 'cause that's, that's where our. I guess our career capital is, our intelligence has gotta be used, but it is so easy to burn out. I'm hoping a lot of my listeners are working for themselves, but older professionals, and I find myselfmyself personally, I, I do a lot of writing now. I I do this podcast. I still look after clients, but there's only so much, um, attention that I can give to my work before I need to have a break.

In fact, I'm

Mayu Kataoka: Mm-hmm.

Nigel Rawlins: I've gotta get outside more and more. And if I don't get out in the morning, um, my whole day is different. Now, obviously obviously I'm older. I don't want to be working all day.

Mayu Kataoka: Good.

Nigel Rawlins: But I love I love doing what I do, but unless I get outside, maybe get into the garden, maybe go for a walk, maybe get on my bike and I ride an electric bike so can get everywhere now, so I, I can get uphills. If I had a normal bike, I don't think I'd be doing it. But the point is, working with our brains, whether we're in a corporate environment or working in our own homes for ourselves, for clients, we can't keep doing it all the time. We're gonna look after our brains, which is perfectly what you're saying. So this is something that's inside us and you are helping people reconnect with that.

Okay. Let's move on a little bit from there. Let's talk about the Japanese Forest Therapy Society. Where did you do your training?

Mayu Kataoka: Actually the training was online, so it's a six months intensive online study. And because I wasn't in Japan when I started my course I received the course via online.

But I also received a training in here in Melbourne, five days face-to-face training, and also the next seven months of online training.

Nigel Rawlins: So that sounds pretty serious. So how many hours was this?

Mayu Kataoka: Yes. I committed myself. I didn't know that there is a certification as a forest therapy guide, but I really wanted to do that and, I knew this going to lead me in better, lifestyle.

Nigel Rawlins: Okay, so you've done the, the course. So tell me about the Japanese Forest Therapy Society, what astounded me is it's got a lot of scientific validation. In Japan they've got Certified sites that you can go, um, forest bathing. And they've got a considerable number of partnerships with medical organizations.

That's got an awful lot of institutional credibility. So it's not just some sort of let's go wander in the forest, is it?

Mayu Kataoka: It's not because we all knew that we feel good in nature, but no one really could explain why, what triggers this, physiological relaxation. Why feel so good. Why our immune system improves just being in nature. Back in 1990s, all the Japanese scientist started a study on human being to measure the benefit of health.

The first test was conducted in Yakushima, one of the World Heritage Island in Japan in the south. They tested one subject to check the cortisol level from the saliva before and after. And, um, they found some reduction of stress level since then the study goes farther. And, uh, it's not just for Japanese scientists, but scientists from around the world joined the study to see the physiological benefit from nature. So as history with the scientific background, the supported by science studies, the forest therapy or forest bathing has only 30 to 40 years of history. But during that time, the scientists are discovering so many benefit just being and walking in nature.

Nigel Rawlins: I think about, you know, our environments, if we're lucky, we have a park if you live in parts of, say, Melbourne and parts of Sydney, there's probably all concrete and, and brick and buildings and stuff like that, and not a lot of trees. So we are so disconnected. But what what you're telling me there is that the Japan Forest Therapy Society has got a lot of scientific credibility, and so you did the course.

So what were some of the things you were studying during that course?

Mayu Kataoka: We learned about understanding the difference between pristine forest and manmade forest. But the benefits are pretty much same. It's a natural environment, does all the good things for human health. And we learn some language to use during the session.

We read lots of scientific papers. Understanding why exposing yourself in nature does good things. But it's also Japanese Shintoism the philosophy of Shintoism also contribute for us to feel more connected with nature.

Nigel Rawlins: So is there an organization in Melbourne that's actually teaching this?

Mayu Kataoka: Yes, there's an organization called International Nature and Forest Therapy Alliance, In Japan there's so many scientific studies, not only in Japan but around the world. It's still going on, but I think they initiated the first forest therapy trail within Deakin University in Melbourne for a scientific research purpose.

Nigel Rawlins: Obviously in Japan there's a lot of institutional credibility, so it must be well known there, but it's lesser known here, isn't it?

Mayu Kataoka: Not yet

Nigel Rawlins: When, you reach out to corporate clients to help them you've got a lot of scientific backing behind that. So it's not, say, Hey, come on, we'll go and do a run through the forest or something. There's quite a bit there. So how will it work with corporates?

Mayu Kataoka: It doesn't necessary that they always have to be in the forest. We use the word of forest because it's originated from Japan. shinrin means forest in Japanese. Yoku means phasing, so it comes naturally from forest therapy or forest bathing. In this country you can call it like nature therapy.

So the important part is to allocate yourself in natural environment, either park or local reserve Forest. Ocean Beach. Whenever it cause like natural environment. So the idea is to take employee out to the nature to reset and rejuvenate their energy back to work so they could be more productive.

More creativity, um, more resilience, strong team bond. And if you have a good energy to fight with this stress related elements at work your performance can last longer, which gives a great contribution to the corporate itself.

Nigel Rawlins: Yeah. I think the critical one is burnout. It's just creeps up on people Um, And finally, sometimes it's too late. Forest therapy or nature therapy in Australia is about engaging the five senses to reduce stress. So, when you say guide a walk, what do you actually do to engage those five senses?

What are some of those activities that you do to help create those conditions?

Mayu Kataoka: Yeah. So the first activity we invite people is called tuning the senses. So it's very simple. We just close your eyes or even you can open your eyes, but go through our five senses one by one. So it's a guided, sensory practice. You start from, it depends on the guide, but I usually start by closing your eyes and feel your body first, and then engage your sense, focus your sense to the listening and feeling and smelling and tasting.

It doesn't necessarily that you eat something or you taste something, you can still connect with the sense of taste if you close your eyes and focus on in your mouth, or you can even open your mouth and taste the air, something like this. So we do that session for 10 to 15 minutes and connecting your own senses means you expands your connection with your surroundings. And I can talk about the five elements the Japanese philosophy of five elements. Understanding these five elements makes you understand more why we are as one of nature. But that could be maybe another story. But anyway, we gave a sensory practice at the beginning of the walk, and then we walk.

So by closing your eyes, you shut down the information coming from your vision and the other senses start waking up.

Nigel Rawlins: That sounds very relaxing from the sounds of it, so you've got an event coming up where you are hoping to connect with corporate clients. What's that? I.

Mayu Kataoka: Yes, it's called Wellness at Work Summit, and that'll be taking place in Sydney in November, the second weeks of November.

Nigel Rawlins: And tell me something about that. How are you involved in that?

Mayu Kataoka: During the Cherry Blossom Festival, we are selling a lemon myrtle tea for them to taste the nature. That's one of the sensory things. And then we made, a few dollars, we made a profit and we talk about what we are gonna do with this money. Should we use it for professional photographer or videographer or should we create some, website, we ask professional, blah, blah, blah. And then one of the guys says, Hey, I found this summit. Why don't we applyConcept wise, it's perfect 'cause we are providing wellness solutions and, connecting with nature is kind of, good topics to talk about now these days.

As you say, more AI, more technologies taking over the world. Why don't we give a simple, solution? So we submitted an application and we approved, so that's how we got involved with the summit.

Nigel Rawlins: Okay, so you're gonna set up a stall or do you get to talk?

Mayu Kataoka: Yes, we will set up the stall. We will decorate some natural material. We want our stall as a little oasis for them to have a break and to contact with some natural materials. And of course we want them to try some lemon myrtle tea as well.

Nigel Rawlins: Do you make up your own lemon myrtle tea?

Mayu Kataoka: Yes, we collect lemon myrtle leaves. One of the guys has the  lemon myrtle trees in the garden,we just pick up leaves and we brew it and let them taste.

Nigel Rawlins: And people like it?

Mayu Kataoka: Yes.

Nigel Rawlins: Oh, I'll have to try it. I don't think we've got a a lemon myrtle here. I'll have to go and have a look at what I've got out there and see what I can make tea, 'cause I'm having more and more herbal teas

Is there something else you'd like to talk about in with what you're doing?

Mayu Kataoka: Yes. Just took a quick note that you told me that things are not simple these days anymore. So I think forest therapy comes into that space. Things are simple and there's only truth in nature. No lies, no fake information in nature. So people with burnout stressed out, they don't have any space, they can't breathe.

So by being in nature, you are in the space and things are very simple there, and there's only truth there. What you see, what you hear, what you witness, everything is the truth. So it's a call to back to simplicity and it's okay to be nothing. You don't have to rush or hurry things.

Because nature takes time to grow it. They don't hurry and it's okay. You get some kind of these slowing down idea or concept in this simple space with only truth information. And we also have innate desire of connecting with nature, which is called biophilia. So our genes knows that we are part of nature.

We relate to nature, but outside information blurred that kind of instinct.

Nigel Rawlins: Our cities are so big now I think our environment is not conducive to the calmness calmness anymore. We're living in a post-industrial world now where most of the value coming out of our thinking and.

Mayu Kataoka: Yes.

Nigel Rawlins: The biggest concern I have is that people will not recognize that they are burnt out already. And I can see that people will be reluctant to take the time to take three hours just de-tune. We're rushing all the time. Okay. Is there anything else you'd like to say?

Mayu Kataoka: That's pretty much I think.

Nigel Rawlins: Okay, Mayumi, how would you like people to find you?

Mayu Kataoka: On the website, which is forestminds.com, for individual walks or private walks, or for the corporate, we can work as a team, which is the website is, https://foresttherapycollectivensw.com.

Nigel Rawlins: Thank you very much for being my guest. It's been wonderful to hear about forest therapy and I, I think people have gotta hear this and if if they can't find a guide, they've gotta get out and start practicing this as well.

So thank you very much for introducing it to us.

Mayu Kataoka: Thank you so much for having me. Thank you, Nigel.