Meredith Fuller OAM Psychologist on Relationships & Career Insights

Nigel Rawlins: Meredith, welcome back to the Wisepreneurs podcast. This is our third time we're speaking, so thank you for joining me.

Pleasure.

Meredith, can you tell us some of the things you've been up to, over the last few years? You've been very busy from what I understand.

Meredith Fuller: Absolutely. The last three years I've been involved in assisting my colleagues making a film. Hometruths was about people's experience of domestic violence. It has so far won 15 prestigious international awards. And, my colleagues Leslie and Rod were actually overseas to, accept the award at a glittering ceremony. And, part of what I did to support the film was to evolve two e books. An e pamphlet to go literally with the film, but an e book that I spent a year and a half doing and my colleague Rod did the, technology with it.

I wanted to do something about understanding family violence for practitioners, for professionals, for, experiencers who wanted to understand what's underneath. The experience. I put it in a context of the last so many hundred years as well as make some short videos that go with it so we can get some various insights from interesting people who are looking beyond the here and now and I wanted to look at some strategies of what needs to be done to resolve something that's an absolute scourge.

So that's taken me up until now. It's now fully available. Everything's free. We did everything as a community service. And I evolved some work looking at the next stage, which is how can we start identifying potential murderers? Educating people to know what to look for, but most importantly, let's go way back and help people learn how do you make decisions about who you go out with, who you partner with, how you establish a high functioning partnership relationship, because these are skills that are missing. Now that I've done that, I'm now moving to the next phase after that, which is making some films. So some colleagues and I have been involved in putting some scripts together for films going beyond that issue and going into much broader issues like why are women contemptuous of women?

Why are men contemptuous of women? Why do we have so many difficult relationships and understanding the etiology of that? So looking really at what is preventing us from having good relationships and what can we do about that? So that's what I'm involved in at the moment, and I'm also supporting my husband, Brian Walsh, who, with his extensive background in psychotherapy and filmmaking, is now making his new series of films, and this is about addiction.

This year's very much about filmmaking.

Nigel Rawlins: Great. Let's go back to the domestic violence. You know, we're hearing about women being murdered. And you just have to wonder why in this age is this continuing and for all the money that's been spent on domestic violence in Australia, it's still going.

Meredith Fuller: When you try to only look at reducing violence in the here and now, you're not really addressing the problem effectively. It needs to be a three pronged process. We need to have remedial, which is right now, what do people need, and to assist in, as you say, constant murders. But, we also need preventative work.

And that preventative work needs to start with the fetus. Needs to start with the baby. Needs to start with the toddlers. Right now, if you have any hope. Because it needs at least a generation or two. And the other one, you need education. Educational behaviour needs to start again, with young children and people who are involved in raising young children and until we do those three simultaneously we're not making effective change. we also have to understand change takes time. But if we don't start this three pronged approach, we're going to be turning around in another 30 years and saying, oh, we've still got a problem.

This is why we need to shift the way we're responding. And it's interesting that where we also need to look is the nature of relationships: how you couple, how you have children, how you process that issue. And it's funny, if you go back hundreds of years, you see this problem very much as what have we lost in our fabric of society?

We've lost connection. People are unconnected. And people do not take responsibility for the care of friends, colleagues, their village. And no one is really stepping up in terms of shifting behaviours that are inappropriate. And so many people are lost. We see this massive increase in violence. We see both male, female, gender diverse, it's chaos.

So we do need to look at a multi factor approach. Otherwise, it just doesn't work. And the problem is, people are still ignorant that this occurs. They still don't get it. What I'm keen on is saying, let's learn to have an intrapersonal relationship with yourself, an interpersonal relationship with other people, and a familial, ancestral, family sense of a range of people of varying ages, gender diverse, who can help.

For all of us to be the best we can be.

Nigel Rawlins: I think that's the thing. How do we, then, become the best that we can be? What do we have to do? You're talking about okay, we've got to look at the little ones, and I do agree there. I remember Jordan Peterson said, because he had some grandchildren, he said, if you don't get that grandchild socialised by about the age of three, they grow up to be terrors.

And we're seeing that selfish, narcissistic behaviour and I think we're seeing it in students, more so probably in America than Australia do you think? Or is that more obvious on social media?

Meredith Fuller: I guess I'd go a step further and say there are things that need to happen for good pregnancy. We have enough information now to know that trauma is the basis of everything that's being trotted out in our society at the moment.

So that's whether you're a perpetrator, a victim, a bystander, an interested onlooker. Trauma is the key thing that needs to be dealt with. And we need to start insulating and caring for a fetus, let alone the birth process. And then what we do know is the first three years are pivotal and we need to have an appreciation that the nature of the relationships that we're all having within ourselves, the intrapersonal relationship, and the interpersonal relationship, and the family relationships, are not sustaining, they're not loving, they're not supportive, and we need to shift this now.

Nigel Rawlins: Do you think governments can help?

Meredith Fuller: Everybody can help. But everyone has to take self responsibility. I'll give you an example of what I mean. I have a nephew who's a very bright young man. And he thinks, and he's encouraged to think by his family and colleagues. And what he does is this. He's with other young men, and they speak disparagingly about women, or they might be in a mixed group and they do not behave appropriately to another young female, he calls them. He talks about it with them. He does something about it. He stands up and says something. Now, how many people in a group do that? Not many. Most people will stand back when there's a group. It's a similar thing that you get if there's a, an accident or drama or fire, car accident, it doesn't matter what it is. Everyone stands there and they all stand there feeling useless because they think, oh, someone else will ring the fire brigade, someone else will get the police, someone else will go and check if they're okay, and we'll just stand there all together.

It's learned helplessness. When a lot of these young people, and it can be primary school years, secondary school years, and above, are in a group. Nobody stands up and says, hang on a minute, why are we hitting each other? Why are we getting our machetes out? Why are we breaking into this place? Why are you speaking disrespectfully to your friend?

They don't do it. We need to start calling out what's appropriate and what's not. And who are the best people to do that? Our peers and also people who are just a couple of years older. Yes, of course, relatives, grandparents, parents and authority figures need to as well, of course, but who do we listen to?

We listen to our peers and people who are a couple of years older as the most profound when we're in our formative years. So after about seven to twelve, these become our reference group. If they're not calling out what's appropriate and what's not, we just follow, we're sheep. So it's very important to look at concepts that give self responsibility and give articulation to each and every one of us to say, what's going on here?

Is there a better way? And how satisfying is this nature of relationship? And so it's almost like, as I said, the three pronged approach. We need to understand that we all have responsibility and understand who are the most influential and that's why a paternalistic attitude towards dealing with family violence doesn't work.

We've been seeing that for a long time. So we need to actually encourage everyone.

Nigel Rawlins: Certainly do. Meredith, the last couple of podcast conversations we had, we talked about careers because you spent quite a part of your life as a career counsellor.

We've got 2024 coming up, we're post COVID now, I'm seeing some research that's saying that people are delaying their retirement. And obviously you and I are older, we're both the same age, we're both 67. What's happening with careers? What's happening with people who are considering retirement?

What are your thoughts?

Meredith Fuller: In Australia, if you remain curious, you remain alive. You remain more alert. You remain vibrant. You're engaged with the world and reflective of your own process. If you're curious, you want to do a lot of things that reflect on your interests, what you're passionate about, what gives you energy and you want to do the things that we know are important.

Movement, breath and sound. As soon as we give up movement, breath and sound, it's like we're calcifying, dessicating. Getting sick. In a lifetime, there's so much potential we all have and we can't do it all at once. So people have started to realize that fantasy that, oh, you can have it all at the same time, you can have everything.

It never worked. What men and women and gender diverse are realizing is you can have everything you want, you just have to sequence it differently. And, in order to fill in what you want, you keep doing things. If you stop, you're dead. So whether it's a total career change, whether it's picking up the new models of how people are living their lives with varied practices, whether it's doing things that give you great joy and satisfaction, it may not lead to any financial reimbursement.

It may be something that you do, alone, with others, part time, but to keep doing things is important. The other thing that's happening is that because of the nature of our relationships, and I've talked a bit earlier about how people have not been made aware of how do you have a good relationship? How do you make good choices?

How do you pick good partners? How do you sustain a process that's viable? So there's, one in two relationships end up in divorce these days. One in two. What is going on? If it's a case of I have a connection with someone, it lasts a long time, we're really happy with it, and then it comes to a close. So in other words, a healthy relationship with a healthy sense of finish.

Different story. You finish well, and then you might move on to someone else. However, we're not necessarily seeing it. What we are seeing are a number of people who are having many relationships. People have been married 5, 6, 7 times and living together with, 10, 20, 30 people. Having multiple generational families and really struggling financially.

So often what happens is we're living longer. In the past we'd be dead by 50, 55, 60, 65. If you got to 70 that's impressive. We've got people going on for 90 something plus. That's certainly people in their 80s. You've got problems with multiple debt. You've got problems with the age of children.

You don't have enough money to actually say, Oh, I'm 65. I'll just call it quits. Cos I'll be dead in two years. So people often need to work. But also, people now want to work. And other people may not want to call it work. But it's about actively engaged in pursuits that keep them curious and keep them alive.

And that's exciting because there's so many aspects to ourselves, and there's a lot of us that's unlived. And in the past, perhaps, we'd be dead, so young, that we didn't get to exercise all those parts. Now we can. And people are fascinated by how the world is evolving, and they want to be alive, so it's not unusual that you've got people for various reasons who are having very different iterations of their lives and I think that's really exciting.

Nigel Rawlins: Okay, let's just talk a little bit about if you're in a career now,

I'm just thinking, I think at about the age of 50, women are finding it difficult in professional careers. Are you finding that or is that just me?

Meredith Fuller: Yes, absolutely correct. Now there's two kinds: those who have had to make choices at the time that worked for them that meant they didn't go down a more traditional path.

And then there are those women who went down a more traditional path, got back into the workforce and then they've come to that age. So I'm talking about, and a range of women in between, so all sorts of women with all sorts of backgrounds, end up hitting that I'm in my 50s now, and I'm asking, is that all there is?

It's often a generational thing too. If you go back in time, we all understood a certain progress. What we need to do now is redefine how we see progress. And we need to redefine a sense of anything being linear. It's not linear anymore.

So if we think of spirals, circles, mandalas, zigzags, change that's absolutely unheard of, we start to see why very young people are doing very interesting things. So if we look at some of our young colleagues who, again, have to have curiosity, they're already inventing ways of doing things working, living, trying different things.

Defining what career is. Defining what success is. Defining how they live their lives. Who they do it with and what they do. And dealing with the unknown. Unknowing, unknown, whatever. Dealing with chaos. Dealing with stress. Dealing with change. And they're evolving new ways of considering what is it to be a citizen.

In that group we're seeing some very exciting things happening.

We're also seeing in that group some young people who are feeling so traumatised by everything. They've just thought, oh, I'll give up, what's the point, what's the point?

So a range of absolutely amazing, innovative neo work to, there's so much chaos, there's so much confusion, I can't make sense of it, no one cares.I'm traumatised, or whatever, I'll just mooch along.

So you've got that broad range. And then with the women in their 50s, you've got women who are actually coming into their best years. Often, your 50s are your greatest years, so 50s and 60s for women are brilliant. And what happens, often in our society, people don't realise how to utilise this amazing talent and if you've got a mirror held up to you that says you're not wanted anymore, you're not interesting to me anymore, you can't assume leadership or you can't get a promotion or whatever, what is supposed to happen to them?

And I'd be angry too, but what you will notice is there are some women who are saying, I'm so juicy now, I've got so much to offer. I'm not going to be defined and entrapped by how other people see me. I'm just going to do what I know in my heart I want to do and I'll find a way of getting around all of the things that entrap me and they are starting to make a new wave of shifting what's going on and that's exciting but it's very hard and for many people because we do have responsibilities to others.

There is a financial component to all of this that people need to be mindful of. Often we just don't have the time, opportunities, connections, links, support that we need.

And again, we come back to my original comment about so many people have been so traumatised in their very early years, even some pre being born, that nine months is critical, that they've never really recovered enough from early childhood trauma, things that have happened to them, to actually be enabled to say, look, this is a new world, it's neo career, neo work, neo self, let me play with some possibilities, and also let me have patience.

We've been sold this ridiculous notion that, oh my goodness, we're going to be dead soon, as soon as you're 70, you've had it.

And that's not true. In fact, a lot of women are in their 80s and 90s and they're doing the most amazing, remarkable things, having their best career now.

If you understand that could be you're going to say, I can be patient, I can build something. I have a 95 year old friend who's a very well known artist.

Now she's been, hung in museums and galleries. She's all around Australia and overseas and she's a vital force. She is still producing extraordinary work. In fact, you're looking at a piece of her work hanging on the wall now. Now, she is being interviewed at the moment by a PhD student who's exploring her impact on art and the world. That's how exciting people are about what this woman's doing.

She's busy working every day in a studio. She is coming up with such amazing ways of doing her art. She's 95. So we start to see that for some of us who have the gift of remaining curious and having adequate health to continue. We don't know what we might be capable of doing in our 80s and 90s.

Nigel Rawlins: Okay, that's a good point. So if we think about that, you're 50 years old, you're bored with your work, you might be trapped because you've got financial issues, you might have children still going through the final years of high school, at that age.

And the vision there is to look ahead. So we're looking at their 90 year old self or their 80 year old self who could be doing something that's satisfying and by then maybe money is not an issue but at that particular time at 50 it is. So how do you make those steps to start making that future happen?

Now it is difficult I think because I think most of us, are not prepared to make that sacrifice for the future self, because we're stuck in the here and now, and it's very difficult to get out of it. So how do we take some steps to start making that future happen

Meredith Fuller: I wonder whether a good question to ask is, let's have a look at our genealogy, let's have a look at our family tree.

Let's see if we can get some patterns, understand genetics, understand how our lifestyle can impact on our genetic gift. Understand epigenesis. And carefully explore what are the themes in my family of origin. How that might help me understand my potential, my likely health, my likely longevity.

And what might I need to do to self care. That's number one. And most people can't do that because these days, for the last so many generations, we don't even know who our great grandparents were. We really need to get a lot more data about that family of origin material. People can be, quite snippy about genealogy and getting on programs and doing that research because they don't realise. the material that's drawn up actually helps us see, who are we?

What are the gifts that we've inherited? What is the style that we've inherited?

And some people who are getting really surprised and getting into it are finding out, do you know what? I can go back to the 1600s and we've got this tradition of self employment or we've got this tradition of building something and inventing or whatever it is.

But they would never have understood those internal yearnings. Or they would never have understood their likely health pattern without having that knowledge.

So I think that's the number one factor. Then you're in a position to perhaps say, OK, I want to do an audit on my health. I want to look at how can I be the best I can be?

I've now got genetic background material. I've now got an understanding of lifestyle things. This can include things like, and this is why there's been a real increase in food technology and food nutrition.

People are recognising that we need to understand what we're feeding ourselves with. Our understanding of the brain in our gut.

The understanding of intolerances, allergies, medical conditions. Alongside all the incredible breakthroughs. So we need to be able to say, if I do want to look at the future, let me do an audit. So I'm going to audit my health, I'm going to audit how I live my life. And again, I'll come back to movement, breath and sound.

We need to move. There is no problem walking. If you have no money and you can't go to the gym, you can walk. There is no problem with movement. You might say, Oh, I've got arthritis, or I've got blah, blah, blah parts of your body that can move, you move. Oh, who wants to hear me? Nobody wants to hear what I say.

Go and sing. Find your voice. That could be with podcasts, it could be with blogs, it could be with book groups, it could be with any activity. Voluntary activities, where you actually get to have conversations.

And start to do those things because that's encouraging your energy. So what we're learning is, let's do the best with what we have got.

And because of the advances in medical technology and, psychology and everything that's happening now with science, we're learning that we can actually change things. We can improve things. We're getting, amazing results that, three years ago would be unheard of, so let's explore that. The development in things like dementia, Alzheimer's, phenomenal.

People are now linking a lot of syndromes and getting much better at saying we can do something right now, let's get on to it. So it's a very exciting time. It's also understanding that When you look at the future, you need to be able to say, what do I actually want? Not what I have to do, but what do I want?

And one of the issues for a number of women in that cohort you're talking about, 50–55, they haven't had time to sit down and say, but what do I really want to do? Not what I think I should. Not what's going to impress other people. Not they're living to get that reflection back. But actually say, what do I really want?

And how can I start to build that? And I might need five years to figure that out. Look, as I said, if you're going to be still working at 80, you've got five years, please. The genealogy, the audit. Audit also includes skill. Many of us don't know about our skills because we've over exercised certain skills, under utilised others, and often it's the under utilised skills that give us the joy.

And again, I'll go back to childhood. Often the things that we might have really loved as a child that we've ignored are the things that give us joy now, but we need to build our skill. I don't think it's unusual that a number of people now are exploring their creative selves. I guess it's about mixing with people who encourage you to be the best you can be.

Now that can be friends, colleagues, mentors, relatives, people you read about, you watch, who are, all around the globe.

There's two ways you can look at the world. You can say, Oh, what's the point? Everyone's hopeless and there's no one I admire and hate everything. Or you can say, Who is an interesting person out there, anywhere in the world, who's doing something? And I don't care how old they are. There's no sense of decades that define wisdom.

You can be a very wise 25 year old. And you can be a very unwise 75 year old. So it's about being curious enough to ask questions and listen and find out about other people. Because we're social beings, but we can't manage too many. And if we try and look at hundreds and hundreds of people, we just think, oh, what's the point?

It's too hard. I think there was a lot of truth in what people have understood more recently that do you know what if you've got five to seven colleagues, friends, that's fine. Maybe if eight to fifteen people who you love working with or being with that's fine. Some of us might have twenty to twenty five, some of us might have up to a hundred after a hundred and fifty, far more difficult and complicated to negotiate.

So we've bought some big lie about, what's the best thing in the world? To be working for a corporation where they, have 60, 000 staff? You have to break things down into manageable chunks. And we have to learn what's a manageable chunk for us. And put effort in.

Relationships require effort. Whether it's a partnership, the person you're living with, children, nephews, nieces, uncles, cousins, anyone. If you don't pay attention and give time, they wither. And if they wither, there's no mirroring of each other to and fro, and there's no being stretched. We need to be stretched.

People who don't listen to podcasts, who don't watch movies, who don't watch series, who don't get on the internet, who don't look at social media, who don't engage in anything out there, they're limiting their energy.

So we want to encourage people to say what are the things you're curious about that maybe you know nothing about or maybe you know a lot about but there's more you can know to be a trailblazer or maybe you're going to do for love of your partner. Do something a bit different.

I think the best advice I can give women in their 50s and 60s is if it isn't working, why do you keep doing it? Try something different. And why this is important is we can get a bit obsessive compulsive about I can't possibly do anything else because I'm so damn busy in my job. I have to work there 12 hours a day.

I'm working on the weekends. I can't possibly fit in another thing. I can't even go to the gym. Gee, I can't even go and meet my girlfriend for coffee. And often what you find is they've got themselves in a loop and it's a self fulfilling prophecy. It's a little bit like people getting a bit stuck. Everything old is new again.

Everyone's now looking at playing LPs. Do you remember how you could get an LP that cuts a groove and it just goes round and round but it's stuck on that same groove? And that's what a lot of people think they're trapped by. What did we used to do? We used to bang our foot on the ground and move that needle and it'd move.

So sometimes we assume something has to be a certain way and it doesn't. And a really good way of getting women to rethink all of this is to say to them, okay, I'm going to tell you that in 12 months time there's a brain aneurysm that's going to take you out. You're going to die. Now, for the next 11 months, what do you want to do?

You want to keep doing the same job you've been doing that you hate, that you're not appreciated about, where you feel invisible, that you have to spend so much money keeping up a lifestyle you don't even want? What for? Have a think. Sometimes, unless there's a health crisis, we don't actually ask that question.

How could this be different? And how can I cobble together something else? I reckon one of the things that we get caught up in is this notion that I have to have things and I have to be impressive and my things demonstrate my worth. And I have to be seen out at the right places and I have to purchase, not necessarily. Some of the most extraordinary CEOs, leaders, thought influencers are what we probably call eccentric.

Some of the most wealthy people in the world look like they've just dressed themselves out of the garbage, it's not about things, it's about who you are, energetically. And I believe that everything can be reconsidered, including your job. And sometimes what you might say is okay, I've had a gut full of this.

I'm staying here, it's been deadening me. I don't have enough time to learn a new skill, hang with different people, play. Maybe I can rethink my whole lifestyle. Maybe I can go, do you know what? I don't have to leave the inheritance to the children. Maybe I need to consider that I've earned that for myself.

And I need to do that. What I give my children is the wherewithal to self care. Not, I have to leave the house, or I have to leave this, or I have to leave that. Maybe you say, do I really want to live here? Where else might I be happy? How else might I do things? And also question, can I sell things? Can I re think who I spend time with?

What I do? How I cook? How I eat? How I dress? Where I go? New ways, different ways. Can I renegotiate roles at work? Can I do anything that gives me options? Some women are saying, Do you know what? I'm scared every day because I think any minute they're going to tap me on the shoulder and say I'm redundant.

And so I work harder and harder so that I won't be redundant. I'm actually killing myself. And do you know what? They're not saying thank you. They're just looking at me with that contemptuous look. I'm so scared, I can't stop running. What you might do is say, who are the people living a life that intrigue me?

Let me explore that. And you might say, I love being organised and I love power and control. Do you know what? I'm never going to get another promotion here. Maybe I have to think about it for myself, with my entrepreneurial skills, with different people. So you start to open up a different way of conceiving possibilities rather than the loss.

What keeps most women frightened to jump or move is they're terrified of what they'll lose. You do have to look at what you will lose first because if you don't understand what you'll lose you can't go to the next level and the next level after seeing what you'll lose is to say but what might I gain and what might I gain that's good for me.

I see very smart people say, if I want to work out how I want my month to look or my week to look, I'm happy to say, let's have a model where half the week I do professional work. Half the week I'm just gonna have a fun job. Bread and butter. I don't care because I'm not defined by what my job title is.

I'm defined by who I am. So let's change this notion that our importance is, what's your job title? And we all know, we need to understand who we are first, so that self reflection is important. And you get people to help you, whether it's coaches, counsellors, therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists, trusted others, elders, spiritual advisors, children, friends.

A lot of people can actually hold that mirror up. And help you see, where do I need to focus my work? What do I need to work on with myself? What prevents me moving? And that's tough, and it brings up stuff that's hard. And you might, again, go back to your family tree, have a look at some of the themes that great grandparents had to deal with.

What about the people who left countries? What about the people who started nothing, from nothing? They've built things. What about the people who have had a lot and left it and gone off and done other things? Find out what those themes and patterns are. Find out who you are really, and what that genetic inheritance is, and what that familial inheritance is.

Who are you like? Who are you not like? Who might you like to become? So they're really pivotal questions, but of course there's one thing here that we do need to ask, and it's a really important one. Because so many of us feel traumatised, lost, stressed, hurt, angry, ignored, neglected. The most important question is, what makes me happy?

Happy is not something that you have most of the day, most of the week, most of the month, most of the year. Happy can be moments in a day, moments in a week, moments in a year, but they're a series of moments and they may be punctuated by some grief, boredom, routine, fun, frivolousness, all sorts of things.

Happiness is fleeting and it's often the moment just before the happy. Anticipation. Anticipation of, I'm about to jump into the pool. I'm about to cut those flowers and see them on the table and my friends are coming and we're all going to smell those roses, the moment before. And you need moments before.

If you just have the happy experience it becomes banal. Find out what those little moments of anticipation are and you want enough of those. Just enough. yoU try things, you play with ideas, you explore things. But you have to be able to say, what do I need to let go of? And what will I lose in order to make the space?

Most people today can't do anything because there's no space, there's no time, they're overloaded and they're broken because their life is so busy they can't do a thing. And they're getting sicker and sicker and more and more disconnected from their internal selves and it's very distressing.

They're the sorts of issues I believe are important. And I say to older women, do you really want to know how you can create a future for yourself? Look at what some of these very young kids are doing. Kids, there's kids that are at school that are creating new possibilities. A lot of young people, whether they're 15, 21, 28, 32, whatever age, they're doing fascinating things.

What are they learning? They're learning, Gee, I like to be alone most of the time and then come out into a group of trusted friends and share ideas or resources or material. Others are learning, I've got to be where the action is all the time and I just go home to sleep. Others are learning, I've got different little groups or colleagues that I team up with for different things.

Others are learning, what's my happy troop? If I do a project, I only want to work with people I care about. Let's all build each other up and go along doing things. You've got to understand that there are new ways. There are different ways. There's no one best way. So it's almost redefining what living is all about.

And what we know now is that health is a fundamental need that we have and so many people are living in a very unhealthy way and they feel so trapped. They don't know what it's like to feel well. They're not well enough to get oxygen to the brain to even consider, what might I want to do? What makes me happy?

How could I restructure our finances or how could I rethink? Bringing in my minimum income that I really need. If I knock off all the things that I have to pay myself to make myself do something I don't like anymore. Or how is the world changing so that what I'm doing will be redundant anyway? Where is the world going?

What might I want to do? They're really important questions but they're frightening because it's about newness and change and we know we feel scared initially. What happens is we need to get support while we're exploring, and there are people who are just a little way ahead of us. It's no good going to, your great grandfather and hearing what their blueprint is, or someone who's too old.

You need to go to people who are a little bit further down the track than you, and who are like you. And they can share understanding, yeah, look, I left this prestigious job. I gave all that up and I did this and my transition was doing that. Now I'm doing something else and this is how I did it. And this is who I found helpful and this is where I did it and all that.

And share some of the knowledge. I don't know where it's going. It doesn't make sense. Oh, I feel alive while I'm doing it. And do you know what? I'm sleeping well for the first time in 15 years. These are the sorts of things we need to do. But most importantly, we need to feel connected because we feel so lost.

Some of the things we've lost that are most important, eye contact with another. Do we really look at our children, our babies, our friends, our partners, our relatives, our colleagues? No. What happens when you have the gaze? Incredible amount of information. We need time. How can we make time? Don't do so much.

How can we not do so much? Don't keep doing everything at 150%. Not necessary. How much do we do that we don't need to do at all, but we tell ourselves we should? Where's that voice come from? Oh, that was from my grandmother. Sorry start to really say, I'm at a crossroads, it's a time to do an audit on so many things, and I'll get some helpers and supporters, and I will make some space. Number one, I'll get myself in a healthful situation so that I can do this work.

Nigel Rawlins: I think that's the answer there too, start with yourself, and your movement and a little bit of exercise and exercise is simple, going for a walk. You don't need anything expensive to do that. And believe it or not, once you're starting to do that, you'll probably change your diet.

And we know, with epigenetics, it does start to change your genetics. It's amazing, eating more protein and things like that, and good protein. I think you've covered it all, because basically what I think we're talking about there is at some point, you realise that you're not who you want to be.

Agnes Callard has written a book called Aspiration. She's a philosopher in Chicago. It's, wanting become something else, but you just don't know how to get there or how to do it. And what you're saying is, if you're feeling this at maybe the age of 50 and your work's not helping there, start by looking after your health and I think that's a great idea before you start moving forwards because you'll need that health in 20 or 30 years time.

And really at, both of us are older, 50 is young. I don't know if people realise how young 50 is.

Meredith Fuller: That decade 50 to 60 is your most productive work wise in terms of capacity, ideas, etc. 60 to 70 is bearing the fruits of all of that. 70 to 80, you're doing the most delightful things because you know what you're interested in.

You know what's most important to you. So it's ironic, isn't it, that the next 30 years for these women can be fantastic. And then after that, look, who knows? Some of us will be living a longer time. Some of us won't. But I want to go out on a high. I want to be doing what I love.

Nigel Rawlins: Totally agree. Alright, so is there anything else we want to cover?

Because, we've done pretty well, I think, in this talk.

Meredith Fuller: Okay, so the most important thing. Have the time and space to self care. Learn how to do relationships. Learn how to parent, how to grandparent, how to be a good team player, a team follower, a team leader, a self funded person who does their own thing, self employed, learn how to be the best in all of those things, and we can all start taking responsibility then for exploring what brings out the best in me?

Nigel Rawlins: And take your time doing it, not all in one go. We've got time. We have a lifetime, really, when you think about it.

Meredith Fuller: We do. We do. And really, the first part of our life is to explore, but the second part of our life, in reflection, is to work out who are we really? And how can we get the gold of our inner wisdom?

And how can we be in what I call a relaxed, alert state. And that's when we get the best of ourselves. In a relaxed, alert state. Most people at the moment are exhausted, tired, stressed, frightened, hurt, lonely, feel lost, don't feel loved. Let's start there. Humans are supposed to love. That's the number one thing.

Love yourself and love others. But learn, because people aren't teaching us any of these really fundamental things anymore.

Nigel Rawlins: Meredith, how would you like people to connect with you or contact you if you'd like?

Meredith Fuller: I have a website, meredithfuller.com.au.

Nigel Rawlins: And you're on LinkedIn?

Meredith Fuller: And I'm on LinkedIn, Facebook, all the social media, and you can find out on my website about all of the things we're all involved in.

I've got various different things I'm involved in with other colleagues. And we're always welcoming people to get involved in some of the activities. I run lots of salons here. We have a professional group called Australian Association of Psychological Type in Melbourne. We run regular meetings here where we talk about issues, we explore issues, we do some workshops.

Meeting different people is one of the keys. So have a look at some of the things that are involved there and you'll also see that I have links to other colleagues. There's a link to your website. There's a link to other people who offer ideas and share their practitioner wisdom. It's about loving other people and how you do that is to say, let's share because we're not having a competition here.

We're having a collaboration and that's love.

Nigel Rawlins: All right. And I'll put all those things in the show notes. So Meredith, thank you very much for being part of the conversation again. So hopefully we're inspiring people to think about their futures and to maybe start little and move forward. Thank you.

I'm looking forward to continuing to provide you with engaging and informative episodes to help you level up in your entrepreneurial journey. Thank you for joining me on the Wisepreneurs podcast.