Alisha Hook Career Coaching: Networks and Reputation in a Shifting Job Market

Nigel Rawlins 0:00

My guest today is Alisha Hook. Alisha has spent 20 years in career and talent acquisition across Australia and the UK. What comes through in this conversation is her clarity of thought and genuine understanding of both sides of the hiring fence. She now runs Your Career Edge, offering career coaching and fractional talent consulting. If you're an independent professional or thinking about becoming one, this conversation will sharpen your understanding of what is happening in the job market and why working for yourself might be the smartest move you make. This is the Wisepreneurs podcast. I'm Nigel Rawlins. Alisha, welcome to the Wisepreneurs Podcast. Can you tell us something about yourself and where you're from?

Alisha Hook 0:43

Yeah, thanks Nigel. Thanks for having me. Um, so my background has been in career and talent acquisition, probably over the last 20 years across Australia and the UK. Um, and I've recently transitioned in more into my own business, more of a consultancy-type role that's offering both fractional talent capability and also career coaching for individuals.

Nigel Rawlins 1:11

Right. And where are you from?

Alisha Hook 1:13

I'm originally from the UK. Yep. And, um, been in Australia since 2007.

Nigel Rawlins 1:20

And you're just out of Melbourne, aren't you, in Victoria?

Alisha Hook 1:23

Based in Melbourne, yep.

Nigel Rawlins 1:24

That's right. Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah, no, I like to... I have guests from all over the world, so it's always nice to hear which part of the world they are. And we're very, very lucky 'cause we're in the same time zone, so I don't have to get up really early in the morning. Yeah. Or stay up late at night, which I often have to do. So Alisha, tell me, what do we mean by talent? What, what's this definition? 'Cause the word talent's been thrown around a lot. You know, in the old days it used to be the personnel department, human resources department. Mm-hmm. And now we're talking about talent. Where, where's all this fit in?

Alisha Hook 1:55

Yeah. That, that's a really good question. So I think talent can be, um, defined from a couple of different perspectives. So if you're talking about talent from an employer perspective, talent would've been, um, sometimes HR professionals would've, would've taken on the talent or recruitment role within an organization. And often that's part now part of a people and culture team. So that's sort of evolved from, you know, HR professionals. There's talent individuals as part of the people and culture team. Um, and there might also be organizational development and learning. And all of that sort of fits into what traditionally might have been a personnel department or a, a HR team, and is often now called people and culture, and, and talent sort of is a stream as part of that. If you're talking about talent as, um, from the candidate perspective or if you're job-seeking, um, your talent partner is often your recruiter that's talking to you, um, in a, in the part of a candidate journey. Or it can be referred to, um, when people talk about talent in the market, it could be referred to skills or competencies or experience that you're bringing in, um, in order to- Get that, uh, acquisition within an organization. So I guess it can mean different things to different people depending on sort of where you're looking at it from. I hope that makes sense.

Nigel Rawlins 3:27

Yeah.

Alisha Hook 3:28

Well,

Nigel Rawlins 3:28

I keep thinking, now if we're calling them a talent person, then they're obviously looking for a talented person to come into their organization, 'cause that's the way we're defining it. So what sort of talents are they actually looking for in organizations? And we're talking about the private industry, not public service, are we? Mm.

Alisha Hook 3:46

Yeah. Yeah. And so I think in a general sense, 'cause obviously it will depend on the role and the organization. But in a general sense, I think that adaptability is probably a key skill, especially given the changes in the market at this stage, um, in addition to that, communication. So those tend to be the key things. The sectors that are recruiting the most at the moment tend to be healthcare. Um, that industry is growing versus lots of others at the moment are experienced either as slowing down or even, um, actually restructures and redundancies. So what we're seeing in the market at the moment is there is a bit of a slowdown, and we're seeing much higher volumes of applicants to jobs than we've seen in the recent couple of years.

Nigel Rawlins 4:42

Okay, let's just dive into that a bit. So if there's a slowdown in terms of employment, yet obviously other areas are growing, what do you think is slowing down that employment? Is it just the economy or is it that thing, the, the boogeyman we call, the AI, that people are just not sure and they're just holding off?

Alisha Hook 5:05

I think it's probably a little bit of both, actually, to be, to be truthful. So I mean, the current unemployment rate has remained fairly steady. So in theory, where's the slowdown coming from? And I think to your point, people are using AI as almost a reason to pause, and I'm seeing that quite often, to pause and think, "Do we really need to hire this role? How are things gonna change in the future? And even if we don't know at the moment what that will look like, do we just pause and wait rather than hiring for a particular role right now?"

Nigel Rawlins 5:43

Hmm. That's a bit scary, isn't it? So what is it... When we talk about health, I g- I guess most of us think about doctors and nurses and things like that, but what are the areas in health that seems to be growing?

Alisha Hook 5:55

Well, health in general, um, so the- there's a lot of technology growth actually in healthcare, as well as all those other traditional roles, because AI is not gonna take over all of those roles at this stage. But I have seen actually, um, technology have a bigger impact in the healthcare industry than perhaps it has done in the past. Um, so there are sort of health tech companies that are growing and roles coming up in that space. Um, but then there's all the other traditional, hands-on healthcare roles which, you know, they're less likely to be taken over by AI. The other area is, um, trades, um, which traditionally perhaps people thought, you know, people went and got degrees and perhaps they weren't considered as highly regarded as, as maybe they will be in the future.

Nigel Rawlins 6:45

I saw trades 20 years ago as the way to go, not to go to university, 'cause that's the issue now. Mm. Even when I went to high school several decades ago, you know, the, the, um, the focus was, um, especially in the state high schools in, in Australia, was to go to university. Whereas if you went to the tech schools, you would go into a trade or into manufacturing or something like that. Mm. And we lost all those. But yes, definitely the trades look like, um, you know, you can earn a good income. And, you know, I encouraged both my boys to become tradies. One's an electrician, one's a carpenter, and I'll be honest, they've done really well. Much more sensible than me going to university and taking forever to grow up. They were earning money and traveling. You know, they could do it- Yeah because of the money.

Alisha Hook 7:32

It's funny you say that. I'll be honest with you, um, I've got two children, grown children now I should add, and I actually probably really wanted them to go to university at one stage, and as it happens, one is now working in healthcare, uh, and the other is an, uh, is an electrician. Okay. And actually, probably that's ended up being a more wise decision than, um, I would have anticipated when they finished year 12.

Nigel Rawlins 8:01

One of my sons is an electrician, and, um, he's got a dream job. I took him snowboarding once, and, um, when he became an apprentice, he went to Japan every year on his apprentice wage to go snowboarding with his mates. Yeah. And now he lives in Whistler in Canada. Oh, that's the dream. And he lives on the mountain, works as an electrician, there's 30 electricians working on the mountain maintaining the lifts. So his dream job, he starts at 5:00 in the morning with electric socks 'cause it's pretty cold there, and he, he rides the snowmobile up to the top of the mountain, turns on the lifts, and, and it's his job with the other electricians to maintain their lifts. If anything breaks down, they're on it. So he's four days on, 10 hours, and then the rest of the time, you know, depending on the season, mountain biking, kayaking, hiking, snowboarding, cross-country skiing. He's chosen that lifestyle. If you, if you went to university, and you were into that sort of thing, how would you get a job with a lifestyle that goes with it? See, people underestimate that, don't they?

Alisha Hook 9:05

Yeah.

Nigel Rawlins 9:06

Yeah. But in the paper this morning, I was reading in The Australian, reading an article about one in five people are stressed at work. Is it any wonder that you've maybe chosen the wrong career, or you're not satisfied with your career or something like that? Okay, let's go into some other things. You mentioned, um, some words, job hugging, anti-perks, and peekaboo jobs. What are those? Mm.

Alisha Hook 9:28

Yeah. So I'll start with the first one. Job hugging really refers to people being scared or potentially worried about, um, the job market at the moment, and therefore really holding on tight to the job role they've got. Um, and that's where the term job hugging comes from. No intention to move. I need to sit tight. I need to hold on tight to this role that I've got because I don't know what the future looks like. So that's where the term job hugging has come from. Um, the second one, peekaboo, peekaboo jobs, and this term, um, comes from the fact that we are seeing high volume number of applicants to jobs. So what often happens is traditionally when you're sitting as a talent partner or in a HR team and you're needing to hire, is typically you would advertise a job, and normally that advertised job would run for four weeks because you pay that fee with SEEK, Indeed, whatever job board you're, you're using. However, because of the sheer volume of applicants to jobs at this point in time, they'll put up a job and then quickly- pull it back down again. Um, and maybe not fully utilize the, even the paid period of time that you would normally, uh, assign to a job advertisement. So that's where the term peekaboo jobs, like you see this job, and as an applicant you think, "Oh, maybe I'll apply for that next week," or, you know, "I'll get to that at the weekend," or whatever. And then all of a sudden the job's gone, and you think, "Where did that job go?" Because it's gone up and it's gone down so quickly, which usually indicates there's a high volume of applicants to that role.

Nigel Rawlins 11:16

That's a bit scary, isn't it? So, oh- It is there's a great role, and I'm thinking about it. Will I apply? I'm not happy at my job. And bang, it's gone. Yeah. And it could be the dream job. What was the anti-perks?

Alisha Hook 11:26

The last one, the anti-perks, and this is a term that I've seen come out of the UK where, typically you talk about the job perks that come with a job, whether that's, uh, learning, flex time, whatever it might be. Um, the anti-perks, they were referring to the aspects of a job role which are actually probably not attractive. To your point, you mentioned people are often stressed in a role, or you're expected to do more. Your responsibilities go beyond what the average job PD indicates it should be. Or there's a toxic culture in there. So actually, even though all these perks are outlined in the job, um, an anti-perk might be sort of the toxic culture. Or it might be the inability to be flexible in terms of hybrid working, which could be an anti-perk these days. You know, lots of people want to- the opportunity to work from home or in office or fully remote. So a company that's doesn't offer that, it might be seen as an anti-perk to the job.

Nigel Rawlins 12:29

Now, that's an interesting thing about the work from home or the hybrid work, isn't it? In our state of Victoria, they, they want to legislate- Mm-hmm that people can work from home. What are your thoughts on working from home? Because there's an awful lot of people, especially in our public service in Australia, and we're a big public service country, working from home. Any thoughts on that?

Alisha Hook 12:50

Look, I think, I think if there was one good thing that came out of COVID- It was this flexibility around the hybrid working within, um, the employment sector. So I think it's a great thing. However, I have been personally in a role where it was practically 100% remote, and I think in those cases my advice would just be, be aware of how you can create presence, your own personal brand, and sort of protecting yourself in the market. Because in some ways you can lose skills and lose that, um, networking ability, the ability to communicate well in person, to build out your network. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it is definitely more difficult to do when you're in a fully 100% remote role.

Nigel Rawlins 13:40

Yeah, that is my concern, especially for younger people. If they get a remote role, you know, where are they gonna get the mentoring or pick up the skills that they'd normally pick up from other people? And I, I know Like, I used to be a teacher, but finished that 30 years ago, and that was an interesting thing. Coming back to the job hugging, um, I noticed then that a lot of people stayed on teaching, and they were past their use-by date. And I'm not talking about old people. You know, some of these people were 40 years old, and they had just sort of got really boring and, and that's why I quit, 'cause I thought, "I do not wanna become like that."

Alisha Hook 14:14

Yeah. And all those, um, ad hoc conversations, you know, when you might be making a c- cup of tea in the kitchen or whatever it might be. Um, and it's funny you say that, even And this was also, um, actually a different podcast that I listen to that was run by LinkedIn, and one of the things that they were talking about is some of the younger generation, because they're so used to texting all the time, even when you rock up to, say, meet one of their friends, they'll text and say, "I'm at your front door." They don't even knock at the front door anymore. That people are almost losing this ability to communicate. And again, going back to remote work, if you're doing that all the time and you can just Teams message or, um, Slack someone or whatever method of communication that you're using, it's almost like texting, and then people lose the ability to communicate in person.

Nigel Rawlins 15:06

And isn't that interesting too? The other thing I was thinking about is especially when you get older, you do want to have a network, especially if you want to then go out and work for yourself. Where are the networking opportunities when you're working from home, and you're just seeing somebody on a screen or you're texting them?

Alisha Hook 15:24

Yeah. Yeah. And look, the network will be there potentially, but how much harder is that to nurture when you've never actually had an in-person- Meeting or interaction with that person

Nigel Rawlins 15:36

And coming back to when you were talking about the talent search, communication was one of the important things. So I mean, can you put on your, um, resume that you're really good on Zoom in communicating?

Alisha Hook 15:50

You could. I haven't seen that before. Um, I mean, I'm not sure that that's necessarily gonna be an attractive quality. I think that would be an expectation that it's already there.

Nigel Rawlins 16:03

Yeah. I was just thinking, it does change the nature of communication, and that, that is a real worry. Like, I mean, I have worked from home for... 'cause I work remotely with my clients. Uh, some of my clients, I can't remember the last time I've seen them. Sometimes it could be years, and they still employ me. I see them occasionally on the screen, but I probably haven't met many of them in person for many years. How's that?

Alisha Hook 16:29

But I'm assuming you probably did originally.

Nigel Rawlins 16:32

Most of them I did originally. Some of them I didn't. They just hired me. Yeah.

Alisha Hook 16:36

Yeah. And like I said, it's not, it's not always gonna be necessary, and I think then it comes back to your ability to build, um, build rapport, build, um, your thinking ability, your influence that you can have on screen then, being able to pick up those other signs. So it's... You definitely can still develop, you know, strong communication skills. I'm not saying that you can't do that, um, if you're in a purely remote role or you're doing a lot, as everyone typically does, Teams, Zoom, or whatever other method that you're using, um, to meet people. But it perhaps is a little bit more difficult-

Nigel Rawlins 17:14

Yeah, I'm thinking it must be. Especially if you're young and you've just got a job and it is remote. More, I'm thinking more in public service that you've been employed, you do your training or your thing, and then you do your job, but you don't get to meet people. And, I can see, you know, the 50-year-olds and the 60-year-olds who- who've had 20 years out there working with other people. And see, I'm starting to think that it's difficult to get into positions nowadays for young people, for example, how many years have you been, working in HR or talent?

Alisha Hook 17:48

Probably 25 plus.

Nigel Rawlins 17:50

Okay. So think about your first five years. Uh, you didn't have remote then, so you had to work with people. Mm. And, and that's where you get sorted out pretty quickly, doesn't it? I

Alisha Hook 17:58

guess, look, the advantage, to be fair, that young people have in the market these days is their, um, digital fluency. And that's where they're gonna have an advantage over, say, an older generation. The older generation might need to lean on their ability to communicate- Mm hold influence. Um, so I think you just need to play to your strengths.

Nigel Rawlins 18:19

Mm. I think that's a good point. But I'm, I'm coming to the thought that at some point in time there's not gonna be that younger generation coming through with the skills and the experience of the 50-year-old. Uh, and I'm beginning to see this with AI, because we know that AI is probably gonna cut some jobs out, so it is going to change. All right. Let's talk a little bit about h- how you're seeing AI, and then I wanna talk to you about how you work as well. Sure. So what do you think AI is doing?

Alisha Hook 18:50

Most, most of the organizations are using Copilot as a given, and I think that's because of the security. So I think of some of the engagements I've had recently, um, in fact, the last two engagements, the only, um, AI tools that you can use in the workplace have typically been Copilot, and that's because of the security around those systems. The more forward-thinking organizations, there seems to be a bit more, um, freedom, I guess, around AI tools. But practically everyone that I'm seeing is using some level of AI, um, to improve how they're working. So I definitely think it's an important shift in the market. Um, and it will continue, it will continue to, to, to grow. And then I do think that some employers are using that as, not an excuse, that's probably the wrong word, but they are using the change in the market to perhaps pause in their thinking about what they do next. And then there's all the governance- So for example, in the talent market, uh, jobs for job seekers and employers that are hiring, there's this enormous amount of distrust on both sides of the fence. You know, so hiring managers, talent partners, HR professionals, um, are seeing candidates use AI extensively. So resumes start to look the same, um, talk in the same way. It's much harder to differentiate people in terms of who you then s- shortlist and select through the process. And then on the other side, you know, candidates are distrusting how employers are using AI because I've seen them use AI in interviews, and are they using the AI to shortlist who gets to have an interview? So there's almost, like, this distrust on both sides, and I think that where that might play out is the more transparent both sides are about how they use it and what the expectations are might rebuild some of that trust in the market.

Nigel Rawlins 21:03

So it's, it sounds like it's a bit i- in turmoil at the moment. Yeah. So the world of work's changing. So what do people have to do, um, in terms of their career to be able to apply for jobs? What I'm thinking about in terms of, you know, younger people, mid-career people- Mm older career people, what are you seeing in terms of what do they need to do to get their jobs?

Alisha Hook 21:31

And this is something that's not new, but networking will actually be, you know, a key currency in, in the job search market if you're looking for a role, and I think that applies regardless of age. So I think for younger entrants into the market, and I watched something from the BBC recently where grads were applying for hundreds and hundreds of roles and not getting much traction. Um, so what's gonna make you stand out? You know, most younger candidates probably don't have a wide network, but those that start to build that and, um, start to lean on then who they talk to to get in front of the right people will aid their, their job search, and that applies equally to older, um, candidates in the market. Often what happens is you have a network, but you haven't nurtured it at this point. So people tend to wait until they're looking for a role, and then all of a sudden there's a bit of a scramble. Um, who do I know or who can I send a random message to? My advice is your network actually is the strength of your personal brand, and so it's something that you should be working on- All of the time, not only when you feel like you need a job or you need something from somebody else

Nigel Rawlins 22:50

Okay. You mentioned a, a word there, a personal brand. Um, I, I think we've been overwhelmed with marketing speak out there, but a personal brand is something a little bit different, and I am working on some of those ideas in one of my articles at the moment. But what do you think a personal brand is, um, without being, you know, fake or over the top?

Alisha Hook 23:13

Yeah. You definitely need to be authentic. I would describe your personal brand as creating a bit of a career story and a narrative, and you need to be really clear about that. So often when I'm coaching people that are in the job market or are looking for a new role, we'll talk about, you know, first of all, just tell me a bit about yourself. So I'll get them to talk about themselves, tell me about their career history, where they've been, what are they passionate about, and we'll have a discussion around that. And then often the way that I get them to position it or s- to start positioning it as they build out that thought process in their mind is, you know, tell me where you have been. Um, so what's your origins? So, you know, in our, my case, I've got 20 years in, um, talent recruitment, in HR, and people and culture teams across Australia, England. Um, so s- give me a little bit of where your origins have come from. And then what are you doing right now? You know, right now I've recently started my own business. I've recently, um, now begun to work in a fractional talent capacity along with career coaching for individuals. So tell me about where you are now, um, and maybe about what, a little bit about what you're passionate about, and then what's next. So that way if you start to think about it in a structured approach, and you're building on it over time, it's not gonna come just like that, but it's creating that career narrative that talks to, authentically to who you are and what you've done and what you bring, so that it starts to roll off the, the tongue in conversations with people. And the more you do it, the more authentic it'll sound, and the more you'll kind of work through how you'll make that, um, unique to you and what, and the different aspects of your career you might wanna highlight

Nigel Rawlins 25:11

I think in terms of how I think about it is you're creating a reputation for yourself as well with, with the narrative around it to clarify that, no matter what your job is, that whatever task you're really good at, that you build on that reputation, I think. And I'm thinking, you know, it's wouldn't, wouldn't hurt somebody who's been in a job for 10 or 12 years to get some coaching to, you know, reevaluate what they're doing for the future. Now, you, you are doing some career coaching, so tell me a little bit about that. Who needs career coaching?

Alisha Hook 25:46

I think anyone really, um, if you've got the ability to tap into a career coach at some point. Um, often employers will actually offer this service. So one of my last employers, we had career coaching available for all of our staff, and it was booked as part of your onboarding. You would have a session with a career coach right as you enter the company. I haven't seen anyone else do that, but I thought it was a fantastic service. Um, and it just helps you to onboard effectively into a new organization, and those people are independent to the actual company that you're working from. So I've seen that be a really unique selling point and a very attractive way of, um, really bringing people into the organization. But I really think that genuinely anyone can benefit from a career conversation, and you should probably do it before you're particularly wanting to move or change roles. Because if you wait till that point, then you're almost on the back burner. And when it comes to networking, for example, we were referring to that earlier, you don't want to then be in a position where you feel like you're asking from other people. It really wants to be a mutual exchange. You wanna be nurturing those relationships. You wanna be giving as much as you're potentially gaining from those conversations. And if you find yourself in a little bit more of a desperate search for a job. It's much harder to engage in that way when you're constantly thinking about what you need and how this person can help you get there.

Nigel Rawlins 27:28

Yeah. So there's a couple things there. I was thinking if they did have that in an organization, it would certainly deal with the idea of job hugging too, because if they're unsatisfied, they can have a conversation with somebody to, to reflect on that. But the other thing I was thinking there too, is my favorite business philosopher is Charles Handy, and he talks about the second curve. The first curve is y- you've been to school, you're in a career, but by the time you get to the top of the career and it starts to go down, it's beginning to get a bit late. So he says you start the second curve once you've got some energy, you've got some money, before it gets to your peak, so you start your next part. Yeah, that would be amazing.

Alisha Hook 28:10

I really encourage people, particularly when you're still with an organization, is actually to really map out who are your, um, advocates, who are your career champions within your business, who is gonna talk highly about you or speak about you with high regard, with credibility when you are not in the room. And often people don't think about that, with any, concept to how that might help them in their career down the track, and that m- that, that's relevant because the more senior those people are and the more advocacy they're building for you, the more that opportunity is gonna grow from that.

Nigel Rawlins 28:52

Yeah. I just wrote an article on my website, Why Professional Reputation Beats Personal Branding in an AI World. I think what it was was that a personal brand is, is more obvious, like you just said, about what people talk about you when you're not in the room. That's when, you know, you do have a personal brand, and I think that's the critical bit, isn't it? I only just wrote that out, so I'm still, still going through it at the moment. But yeah, it's some of these issues is that nowadays, I, I don't know if we last in a career anymore. I mean, there's still people who can spend their whole life in one job, but I don't know if that's so true anymore. So therefore, the personal brand or the building of the reputation's really, really important. In

Alisha Hook 29:37

Melbourne actually, it's a pretty small market. There's usually somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody who knows you.

Nigel Rawlins 29:46

Well, my, my daughter worked in the restaurant industry in Melbourne, has a sociology degree and a university debt But worked in hospitality, but they knew each other. Mm-hmm. That, that's in the higher-end restaurants, so they knew if there was work, if there wasn't. So they could actually find their jobs 'cause they'd, they'd steal each other from restaurants if they need, you know, high-end service people.

Alisha Hook 30:08

If a talent partner or somebody within the business knows that, you know, "Nigel, you applied for this role," then that human element that comes in, "Oh, I know Nigel. He's actually great. He's, you know, got a reputation for X, Y, Z." Mm. You know, you're more likely then to be shortlisted or at least get your application looked at and considered, um, if you've got a strong network, and a personal brand, and a reputation that is following you.

Nigel Rawlins 30:40

And that's the job, isn't it? The minute you start work, that's what you gotta consider. But I, I guess when you're young and, and, and you haven't had any career advice, you're probably not go- gonna realize that for a few years. All right, Alicia, let's talk a little bit about what you do now. We talked a bit before we started, that you do a fractional talent role now, that you have your career consulting company, Your Career Edge. So tell me about what you do now.

Alisha Hook 31:07

So I guess I have two audiences, and at this stage, 'cause my, um, my business is mostly just me, I have a couple of people I can lean on if I, um, secured some work that was greater than just allowing for myself to, to, to take that up. But essentially two audiences and one expert, if you like. So one audience will be employers, and that will probably be the fractional talent role, and that might be, you know, a surge in, uh, roles that you need to hire. It might be that you need to look at your, uh, candidate or applicant journey. What does that look like? Where do we need to engage AI versus the human touch in that journey? So mapping that out and really, um, understanding the moments that matter, and then putting things in place to make that a good experience, both internally for your hiring managers and your team, and externally for your candidates. So whilst at the moment it's a employer market, if you like, you know, at some stage that might shift back to a candidate market. So that might be one aspect. In addition to that, you know, educating hiring managers or being able to, um, look at the interview process and really make sure that that's well-defined, clear, articulate, uh, without bias. Which is difficult to do in this day and age. So that's one aspect, and that will be the employer audience, if you like. And the other side to that will be the individuals. So often a lot of the career coaching comes around, um, either reverse engineering what they wanna do. I don't know what I wanna do next in my career. I need to kind of get some clarity around where I'm going, what I'm doing, what I'm passionate about. Or it might be that you have an internal role that you wanna go for, or you've got a particular career path that you wanna be building on. Maybe there's issues with your manager. How do I navigate this in the workplace? Or maybe you've been made redundant, or, um, you want to career pivot into a new area. How do I approach this market? How do I make my resume fit a new industry where I don't perhaps have experience? So there's a whole broad remit really around the career job market in general that I might offer, um, career coaching around. Well,

Nigel Rawlins 33:39

I can see a benefit because you go in as a fractional talent manager as well, don't you? So you know the ins, and you also know the outs. So tell us about the fractional work. So you do take on some fractional work at time?

Alisha Hook 33:52

Yeah, absolutely. So I've, um, I've recently had an engagement within superannuation. Um, previously I had an engagement in healthcare. I've also had one in the Strata industry. So, um, most of my experience, to be fair, has been within professional services, but it's not limited to that. And to your point, I think one of the unique selling points, if you like, for working with me as an individual is exactly that. As you say, I've sat both sides of the fence. So I've been on the hiring panels. I've been the interviewer. I've been part of the discussions post-interview to determine who moves from first to second, to references and onboarding. And equally, I've been part of that candidate experience. So I've been looking at hundreds of resumes. I've been working in applicant tracking systems, so that's the ATS for short. Various systems that then use, some of them use AI technology, some less so, um, in order to shortlist candidates and identify the right talent for a particular role. So I've seen what happens in the candidate journey. So I hope then that that, for either party that I'm working with, will give a more insight and more in- understanding to the entire process

Nigel Rawlins 35:09

So let's talk a little bit about fractional talent. How do they reach out to you to say, "Hey, we need you, Alisha?"

Alisha Hook 35:15

So I do have a website. Yourcareeredge.com.au, and you can book a call or schedule a time to have an initial conversation to share a little bit more, I guess, about what your potential need is and to identify whether I'm the right fit for you as much as vice versa. Um, so often that's the starting point. Obviously, I've then got an email address. I've also started, an business Instagram page as well, Your Career Edge Official. Um, so there's a couple of different ways. Or LinkedIn. To be perfectly honest, actually, that's where most of my employer engagements have come from, via LinkedIn.

Nigel Rawlins 35:52

Ah, that's what I wanted to know, where, where the employers reached out to you. But you must be reasonably well known in the industry now.

Alisha Hook 35:59

Yeah. I think I've, I... Look, and that's one of the things. You can't s- tell everybody, "Nurture your network," and not be doing it yourself, right? So, um, I do make sure that I try and stay in touch with people that I've worked with along the way. And to be perfectly truthful, I learn as much from them, um, as I, as I hope that they do from me. Um, I think, you know, that learning agility and to be continually picking up new skills and being in touch with the market's really important. So if anyone wants to reach out and just have a coffee, I'm always up for that because I, I think there's a lot of value in, in learning from other people.

Nigel Rawlins 36:40

So would you suggest to some people who are in a senior position that maybe part of their career move would be to work for themselves and go fractional or get a couple of fractional positions?

Alisha Hook 36:53

Yeah. We talked about, um, portfolio careers very early on. You mentioned that term, and it's funny because years and years ago, and there's an article that I've posted on my LinkedIn account- I talked about a spiderweb career, um, where, you know, you don't have to go in one direction. It's not always up. You know, you might go sideways. You might do some remote, some fractional work at some point in your career. Then you might go back into employment. I don't think there's a fixed, um, way of working these days. I think it's much more flexible. And for me, the transition from employment to, um, being somewhat of an entrepreneur now and setting up my own business gives me just a lot more flexibility. You know, I mentioned that I'm from the UK originally. I've got, um, parents that are getting older at home. So it means that if I do need to go back there and support them, I can continue to work. Um, so it's working out what, what you need, I think, at your point in your career and what's going to be the best fit for you, and it might not be forever.

Nigel Rawlins 38:02

You, you mentioned something interesting there. When you're doing these fractional roles, you're actually learning as well, uh, and you're sharing your knowledge with them as well. You're also doing a coaching course for your business as well? So you're still continuing to learn.

Alisha Hook 38:15

Yeah. So I've been working with, um, Thought Conductor to get my International Coaching Federation, the ICF, accreditation. I've recently just completed level one. I'm now moving on to level two. It will be an ongoing process, so you need to build up, um, coaching hours to get accredited and to keep moving through that process. But that's really given me some frameworks and tools that perhaps I wasn't aware of from my past experience to really elicit, um, people's thinking around coaching in general and help them lean on the resources that potentially they already have as an individual, um, and then, and build on that accountability from there. So

Nigel Rawlins 39:04

the interesting thing about doing the coaching, um, and, and also the work you do is, one of my guests is Johanna Rothman, who wrote a book on consulting and careers and stuff like that. She's written about 21 books. But she talks about consultants, um, understanding which role they're playing. So sometimes it's a teacher, sometimes it's a coach, sometimes it's doing the tasks. So it's important to have a repertoire, which you're doing, which helps with the portfolio. And I was gonna mention Ben Legg on episode 87 of the podcast. He's the guru of the portfolio career. So that's a very interesting one if, if people are interested in listening to that. Okay, Alisha, is there anything else that you want to talk about?

Alisha Hook 39:48

Um, no, I think I can talk, I can talk endlessly, Nigel, about all things career, talent. There's probably lots of things that I could touch on, but I would, I would probably say really important is your networks. Really important is to think about who your champions and your advocates are, um, for you. And don't necessarily always think of them in the workplace, because as you say, they can be much broader than that. And then if you are trying to navigate the job market, think about the value of a career coach that can talk to you about how applicant tracking systems, what the other side looks like that you don't see, 'cause all you do is apply for a job, and then you're waiting for the call. But understanding what happens behind the scenes before you get that call is gonna be really helpful for you to get traction in the market, and that's where, um, I can come in. And for employers, you know, 20 years of experience, I hope that that means that then they can lean into, um, tapping into that experience on a short-term basis. Take whatever resources, insights, understanding I can offer, and hopefully then you can build that into. Whatever you need, and then both parties can move on. So, I definitely hope that there's value both for employers and candidates out there that might be seeking what's next or might need some help at a particular point in time.

Nigel Rawlins 41:11

Oh, I can see that. I think that's really important. I was thinking in terms of running a business. I, I have spoken to some business coaches on the program, and often the thing they've gotta get through to the consultants who they coach, is that they do need to spend time marketing themselves or building that personal brand. It does take time. So the, you know, to cruise through a job and not to spend a little bit of time on your career, and some money, and some time on your networking is probably quite foolish nowadays, isn't it? As well as doing some learning and, uh, fiddling with AI. So all of these things, but yeah, coming back to that personal branding and, and your networking, yeah, you, you hit it on the nail. And the fact that you are switched on and employers can pull you in and you're happy to do that work and, and you'll still be able to run your business on the side. I mean, 'cause we're flexible in that regard, aren't we? Yeah.

Alisha Hook 42:08

Yeah.

Nigel Rawlins 42:08

So, so let's go through, Alisha, how, how would you like people to find you?

Alisha Hook 42:14

I think in the first instance, if you're on LinkedIn, um, that's probably where I'm most active. So LinkedIn, I've got my profile, Alisha Hook, and there's a link to my website. Otherwise my website, yourcareeredge.com.au those are probably the two most effective ways to reach out to me.

Nigel Rawlins 42:36

So please do that, listeners. Just reach out to Alisha, and all of this will be in the show notes, so people will be able to find it. So Alisha, thank you very much for being my guest.

Alisha Hook 42:46

Thanks so much for having me, Nigel. It's been really insightful