Sarah Duran Fractional COO: Systems for Solo Businesses That Scale

Sarah (00:00)
Yeah.

Nigel Rawlins (00:00)
Sarah, welcome to the Wisepreneurs podcast. Can you tell us something about yourself and where you're from?

Sarah (00:08)
so I live just outside of Denver, Colorado in the US. And let's see, something about myself. I am a parent of an eight year old and I have two dogs and a husband and five chickens. Maybe that was like the wrong order to list them in, but that's

Nigel Rawlins (00:30)
No, no, no. It's pretty good.

Sarah (00:31)
me.

Nigel Rawlins (00:33)
Now tell me, who's the boss of the house if you've got five chickens in?

Sarah (00:37)
it's definitely still me. Sometimes my daughter, it's she's at that age where she likes to be the boss, but usually it's me.

Nigel Rawlins (00:47)
that's all right. No, I just I used to have chickens and they're the the biggest manipulators I've ever seen. They they rule the roost in many ways. So

Sarah (00:57)
They do. They do. They are they are yes, very they are also very loud in the mornings.

Nigel Rawlins (01:05)
Yeah. the lovely thing about having chickens is you've got these lovely fresh eggs. but I I I gave up in the end because it was just you know, if they got out, it's really hard to catch them. And if you've got a vegetable garden, they'll slash it to pieces. So so they're quite they're quite interesting. It's lovely having pets, but boy, you know, it is work. So Sarah, I understand you started off being a grade school teacher, elementary school teacher, primary school in Australia, and you decided you wanted to make a shift. Can you tell us something about those shifts that you actually made to get to where you are today and and then tell me something about what you are today?

Sarah (01:48)
Sure. so yes, I started my career as a third grade teacher. I only did that for two years. I realized pretty pretty early on that that was not my calling. And so after that I worked for I stayed in the field of education. I worked for educational nonprofits here in the US, some in Colorado, some national nonprofits. And about Let's see, I did that for about six, maybe seven years after I left the classroom. And I got to a point where I got a job that on paper was the best job I had ever had. It checked all the boxes for me. I got a big raise. I had great benefits. I was working from home, which was an anomaly back then in the pre COVID days. And I still about Four months into that job, realized that I was not happy. And I could not figure out why. It was like, I have checked all the boxes for myself, all the things that I said I needed in order to be fulfilled in my job and happy. I have checked, and there's still something missing. And so I quit that job and I ended up picking up some contract work just to make ends meet while I was figuring out what I wanted to do next. My plan was. definitely not to work for myself. my parents owned their own business my entire life. And while they were extremely successful, I saw how difficult it was to run a business, especially a business with employees. And so I never pictured myself as a business owner growing up. And turns out that the universe had different ideas. So about, let's see, I did that contract work for about two years. And in that two years, I started to realize how lucrative it was, how much freedom I had, how much autonomy I had. And at the end of that two years, with a few other like bumps in the road along the way, I decided to incorporate my company. And that was about ex actually, I think exactly ten years ago. What nine years ago that I incorporated. and so yeah. The rest is history. And so now, over the 10 years that I've been running my business, I have called myself many things. I started as a project manager, which is a lot of what I did before I went out on my own. And that evolved into operations manager, operations consultant, program manager, grant manager. I did all kinds of things, but operations was always like the focus of what I did. And Right before I incorporated my company, I served as a COO for a small startup that a friend of mine was running. So about two years ago, I would say, I as entrepreneurship goes, you consistently evolve, you consistently new learn new things about your business. And so I have been repositioning myself as a fractional COO over the last two years. Two to three years. And I think that's really a process of me realizing that that's what I had been doing all along to a certain extent. and so yeah, so that is what I do today. I'm a fractional COO. I work mostly with solo to micro businesses. So as opposed to a lot of other fractionals who work with startups or bigger companies, I focus a lot more on small businesses, businesses that are small enough that really they would never need a full time COO. And so I'm able to bring that skill set as an embedded part of their business on a smaller scale, a skill that actually fits where their business is and where it's going.

Nigel Rawlins (05:48)
That sounds brilliant. So what I'm hearing there is you quickly realise that teaching wasn't what you wanted after two years, which I think was a tremendous thing to find out. Now I was an elementary teacher myself for sixteen years. I stuck it out because I think my father just kept changing his job, so I stuck at it way too long and then got out thirty years ago. Which was probably the best thing that ever happened to me. But you you did you realised that fairly early on and then shifted in. And the other thing I've just heard there too is, you know, it our businesses do evolve over time the more we do it and we more cl th we clarify it, you know, what we actually do. And and you've just explained that perfectly. But you also mentioned that your parents ran a business. Now I actually do remember one of my dad's jobs was running a business and the fights my parents used to have, I mean, they loved each other till they passed away, right to the last moment. But boy, they used to have fights all the time about things and I don't know where the money came from or went. I mean, I think business in Australia is very different to America. I think I think America is much more entrepreneurial. So you saw things, but reality taught you that you know, you could do it yourself, and I think that's fantastic too. But isn't it interesting the way it comes over time? So when you talk about working with micro businesses and small solopreneurs, you know, you must be talking about businesses that are quite different to say the the the the person who's doing something for themselves and turning over a little bit of money. I'm coming across the fact that there are solopreneurs out there who are turning over million dollars a year, you know, working for themselves. So explain how you can work with them as a CAO and some of the things a CAO actually does.

Sarah (07:55)
Yeah. So yes, there are it and I think that when I say solo businesses, people think of, you know, true solos. And I think a lot of the folks that I work with are true solos. But you're absolutely right that in especially in this day and age, it is easier and easier for someone to run a true solo business and be doing upwards of a million dollars. Usually my sweet spot with folks is when they are crossing the like five hundred thousand dollar range in and again, as you said, it I think that metric kind of like varies depending on where you're at. but really it what I run into with the folks that I work with one on one is that they have built they have built a business so long by themselves that the entire business lives in their head. They are really selling only themselves, which eventually that has to shift a little bit, whether you're bringing on employees or just subcontractors or productizing your work a little bit more. And the way you do your work also has to shift as you grow. Even if you are staying, I would say most of the people that I work with, even though they are true like solo businesses or in some cases micro with a few employees. They are not doing it by themselves, even the true solos. They will have a ver some subcontractors, they have, you know, a virtual assistant or people who are supporting them. So on paper, they are a solo business, but they have kind of a network of people that they collaborate with and rely on to help them do their work. a lot of what I do with folks is about taking the business that is inside of their head that they have been holding on to. the entire time they've been building their business and extracting it from their head and getting it into systems. So they've gotten to a place where they run everything sort of on instinct. They just know they know how to write a proposal. They know how to do the project. They know how to create the deliverable. And when you start having other people support you, whether that's subcontractors or actual employees, you have to be able to get that out of your head. And I would say like even before you get to that point, you have to be able to get that out of your head just to make your work more efficient because you can get to a place where you're really sort of reinventing the wheel every time you do something. And so a lot of that looks like building systems. I build a lot of project management systems, a lot of capacity management systems, financial management systems. So really like again, all the things that are sort of sitting in someone's head. that are like instinctual, just like the day to day, they just like know how it works. I'm going through a process of taking that all out of their head and putting it into a system. The other component of that is I do a lot of strategic planning. So the again, sort of the instinctual things where they're like, I go, I'm going through the motions every day. I'm doing this thing. I'm doing my client work, helping them take that up a level to What do you actually want to be building here? What do you want to be building towards? And how can we hold that longer-term picture in our heads while we're also doing the work down here to make that happen? So most of the work I do is a combination of strategy and systems. And I guess the other thing I would add too, which I should have said in my introduction, but I did not, is that I also work with like true solos, like freelancers and solo consultants. And I do that in a group setting. So I run a program called the Solo Printer Collaborative. And that is where I'm able to take that same COO skill set, the same thing that I'm doing for my one-on-one clients. I'm able to bring that into this group setting and help people do it for themselves. So the the people that I work with sort of are all on this like small to solo business owner spectrum, but I work with like people at the very, very smallest end of that spectrum all the way up to the, you know, million dollar plus side of that spectrum.

Nigel Rawlins (12:10)
No, that's fantastic because yeah, that's the the thing I've got to the stage now. I've had to hire somebody to start putting my articles on my website. I've got two I run a marketing services company. So basically I look after the marketing side, which say the marketing side, but today it's more positional side of of more the older independent professionals and I I have got so many articles that I've had to go back over. And and see this is where you know, if one of your clients is churning out articles and writing, because this is one way to keep up, not only up to date with what's happening in your reading and your writing and also positioning, I didn't have time to start putting my articles on my blog site, on my Wisepreneurs website. So I've had to hire one, but again, in terms of systems, I have to explain this is how I do it. So bringing on somebody. And I have two web developers I work with all the time. But I didn't want them to do that because this was something different. So how do you work out exactly what they need when you're working with them?

Sarah (13:23)
So I always start my process and this is true whether I it looks different, but it's still a very similar process, whether I'm working someone individually or in the group that I run. I always start with an audit of where they are. So getting a sense of first the first three things is really about the individual, who they are, what they want to get out of their work and why they do it. And then from there building out into the business. So I have a six-point framework that I use to assess someone's business. And I do in in the group setting, I do that with kind of like a questionnaire assessment. In the one-on-one setting, I do that with like an actual business audit where I'm like in their business, interviewing their team members, looking at their systems, examining their scopes of work, examining the processes that they have in place. But those six points are Strategy and systems, clients and services, profit and value. So oftentimes when you think about operations, you're only thinking, and again, most of my focus is on that strategy and systems piece. But a lot of times people, for an example, will come to me and they will say, I have a capacity problem. They're like, I'm working all the time. I don't like I I have a capacity problem. And when I start looking underneath the layers of their business, I realize, and then again, this is just an example, they don't have a capacity problem. They have a clients and services problem. So they don't have any capacity because they're doing 50 different things for 50 different kinds of people in 50 different ways. And so that's an example of that it that an that operational audit really helps someone look at all of the component parts of your business and how they fit together. Because often what is a looks like a capacity problem, it may indeed be a systems problem. It may be a clients and services problem. It may be a profit problem where they don't actually understand the financial aspects of their business. And so again, just an example, they're hiring a ton of subcontractors. They're like, I have a capacity problem. So I'm gonna get all these people to help me do it. And then effectively. They're not making any money because they've hired all these other people to help them do the work. So it's really a comprehensive way of looking at all of those six pieces of their business to figure out where do we focus first? What is the first place where we want to be making some changes so that you can start seeing results, feeling like you have more capacity, feeling like you have more structure, feeling like you have more of a direction of where your business is going.

Nigel Rawlins (16:09)
It sounds like that's a relief to a lot of your clients from the sounds of what you're saying there. I think we can see your dog in the background. One other thing,

Sarah (16:16)
Yes, that's Tina.

Nigel Rawlins (16:18)
I I I I did I I know that you're you've are you you've discontinued your podcast for a little while or it's just an hiatus for a moment, or what are you doing there? 'Cause I was gonna talk to you about one of your guests.

Sarah (16:29)
It is on it is on hiatus. Yeah, it is on hiatus. I don't have a I don't have specific plans for when it will return, but I know that it will return. But right now it is on hiatus, yes.

Nigel Rawlins (16:43)
Well, I noticed one of your guests was Melissa Lieberman, who's been on my podcast a couple of times. And the discussion I've had with her is that and and some of the other coaches I talk to is people forget that when in when they're running a business, they actually have to do the work. But it's also a business and marketing is involved and administration is involved and yes, you've you've got to have profitability so you can, you know, spend some more money on upgrading your equipment or or paying yourself some dividends. And, you know, the thing that's loudly coming through is that most people forget that they've got to do all those other things and leave things to the last moment and it can cause a great deal of stress. So it sounds like what you do, you come in and just say, right, these are the things you're doing. Here's the major thing we've got to to work on and work from there. Well, one of the things I'm thinking about is in terms of a person you're working with. They've got their core expertise, which is how they create their own value or or or get clients. When you systemize them, how do you protect, you know, what their core value is, the you know, the things that people pay them for for their expertise?

Sarah (17:58)
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think as we talked about in the beginning, that your core value, there's a piece of your core value that is intrinsically true about who you are. And then there's also the ways that your core value sort of evolves over time. And I think what I try to do is really make sure that that's why I start with those first three pieces, like who you are, what you want, and why you do what you do, is because We get a lot of advice about what it looks like to scale, quote unquote scale. and often that advice is you outsource all of the doing. So you stop doing the doing, you outsource all of the doing, and then effectively you end up just managing. You just end up managing the work and you're no longer doing the work. And for some people, that's fine. Some people genuinely like managing. That's like part of their skill set. For a lot of people, you they don't want to actually give up the doing. The doing, their like core value, the doing of what their core skill set is, is the thing that has made them successful so far. And so it's really important to have that customized approach to working with someone al along these lines to make sure that you're not giving them sort of like out of the box best practice cookie cutter advice about like this is how you scale. You outsource the things, you stop doing these things, you start doing these things. Like this is the way it's a one size fits all. This is the way it works for everyone because it's really fundamentally it doesn't work that way. There are lots of people who outsource I think hiring someone like me is a great example. So as opposed to outsourcing the doing, they are outsourcing the businessing, right? Someone hires someone like me because they need to build the business around their business and they know that they want to keep doing the doing. And so they hire someone like me to build the business around their business. so for everyone it looks a little bit different. And I think it really is about understanding that core value in the beginning in order to make sure you're preserving it in the design of the business moving forward.

Nigel Rawlins (20:32)
Sarah, the internet seemed to cut out, but I I think whatever you said was recorded, so I'm not gonna lose it.

Sarah (20:38)
Okay.

Nigel Rawlins (20:40)
So, it records that's the be thing about Riverside, it records at your end and my end. And

Sarah (20:47)
good.

Nigel Rawlins (20:47)
and then I clean it up on descript afterwards 'cause I I spoke to Euna Hurley one time. no, I don't think it was Una it was one of the other Irish ladies I spoke to and it was so funny. I think she had to go and kill two kids who were just downloading games or something. well this thing about scaling, I I think I s I s I saw I think you've got a quote, What what got you to six figures will bankrupt you at seven. And I think that's the gist I think of what you're really talking about. what I'm also hearing that because of your background and and the way you're organized, y you've got what I call frameworks or systems that are repeatable. They're they're visible logical and repeatable and you bring them in, but obviously you work very sensitively with your clients so that they don't lose their core. But this thing about scaling, I think is a really interesting question. Maybe we should explain what scaling actually is and what your thoughts are, what got you to six figures, will bankrupt you at seven, and maybe talk about that.

Sarah (21:56)
Sure. So I think scaling on the at a very surface level is making more money by working less time. And there's a lot of ways that that looks. I think people think about productizing their services so they can sell them in a way that doesn't always involve their direct interaction or productizing at a different level where it fundamentally just becomes more efficient, where you're sort of like cranking out more work with less of your effort. Sometimes that looks like hiring people because your business is growing and you're you're doing more volume by bringing other people in to help you with the execution. so at a very surface level, that I think is what like you know, when a lot of people think about scale, that is fundamentally what people are thinking about is like how am I making more money but not working more? Working the same or even maybe working less. So that is really the way that like I think about scale. When I think about that phrase of what got you to six figures is going to bankrupt you at seven, this is really that juncture that I'm talking about, like that sweet spot where I'm working with people where what they're doing is working. Like they're building, they have built a business. A lot of my clients have built a business organically. They didn't do a lot of business development. They're just really good at what they do. And so they keep getting. Repeat business, referrals, like the work is just coming in, coming in, coming in. And what they were doing that got them to that six figures, which was doing everything themselves, only selling themselves, like them, them as the only product of the company. They're only selling their expertise as opposed to selling the results or selling the team or selling the outcome or selling the product. That is a fundamental shift in the way you have to think about your business moving forward because you can't hold it all in yourself anymore. that's really that piece where you have to start, and again, that looks lots of different ways. A lot of it is about systematizing things, making things more efficient, making sure that the way you do things is not just in your head but is repeatable for other people to be able to help you do it. A lot of that might be getting even more narrow about your clients and services where what got you to six fixture figures was doing everything for everyone and what's going to get you to seven is really narrowing down on what you do and who you do it for so that you can do it more efficiently. so there's there's lots of ways that that looks but I think it fundamentally hits at that sort of leverage point between where you go from Often I phrase it as the the shift from freelancer to business owner, where you cut where you go through this transformation where as a freelancer, you truly are doing everything yourself. And you have to eventually, if you want to quote unquote scale, you have to eventually make a shift to not just not doing everything yourself, but really getting everything out of your own head so that it's in a systemized place. where you can automate it, you could have AI help you with it, you can hire subcontractors to help you with it, like whatever that ends up looking, that's sort of that key pivot point.

Nigel Rawlins (25:21)
Mm. And one of the things there I was thinking about, if if they are a a small operator and they're enjoying what they are doing, how do some of those operators think about growth? You know, if they want to stay small, do they get a bit worried that, you know, geez, if I'm gonna scale or grow up sorry, grow up, if I'm going to grow, it's gonna get out of hand or it'll be too big for me. I mean, how do they determine what they want to grow to?

Sarah (25:51)
Yeah, and I think that's that's a great question because that's a big part of the way that I work with people. I am never going to be the consultant that's like, I am here to get you to seven figures. Because my job as a fractional is to get you to your version of success. I am not the one that's like, we're gonna triple your income. We're gonna get you ten clients in ten days. It really is driven by what they want to get out of it. and I think that there's the that What I've seen is entrepreneurship, solopreneurship to a certain extent is cyclical. So you often go through these phases where it's like you start off as what I call like a jill of all trades. That's the place where you're doing everything for anyone. And then there's the next phase where you're in this like messy quote unquote scaling phase, right? All those clients are coming in, you're like, I have to think differently about this. A lot of people then get to a place where They've done that work. They've built the systems. They've built the repeatable processes. Maybe they've built the product. Maybe they've hired the team. What I find when a lot of people get to that place is that they are bored. They're like, I actually I started this because I liked all of that messy, like building and learning and growing and making new things and like putting out fires sometimes and doing all this exciting stuff. And now that I've like got it locked in, I just want to start over and build something new. And so I think that can look a bunch of different ways. I think we all naturally evolve as people. And so our businesses are going to naturally evolve alongside us. But that doesn't always mean that it's about quote unquote growth all the time. we are gonna grow, our skill sets are gonna grow, our capacity is going to grow, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we're all aiming for a seven-figure business or that's the right fit for everyone. A lot of people really just want to. maintain a solo business. And oftentimes that then is not about what are the systems we build for you to grow and scale. It's about what are the systems and boundaries that we build for you so that you know very clearly what to say yes to and what to say no to. How are you making your business as efficient as possible so you can take on a little bit more if that's what you want, but you're not working all the time. So the strategy there becomes a little bit different. If I'm working with someone who is like my goal is to grow, or if I'm working with someone who is my goal is to work twenty hours a week. Those are different. Those are gonna be different strategies.

Nigel Rawlins (28:32)
And you're able to do it. I I think this is what what people need to realise if they're running a b a business. That it's not just being on that hamster wheel rolling running and running and ranning. You can actually fi create a business where you get the time to do the things you want. you know, working all the time is not a good idea 'cause of burnout. Now, whilst you're doing this for other people, you're also running your own business yourself. So you have to manage not only yourself but your business. And from what I understand is you're fairly boutique because you say that you partner with other contractors rather than wanting to build an agency. you've got collaborators that you work with. So can you tell us about how you work as an independent professional yourself?

Sarah (29:23)
Yeah. well, I will say along the lines of what we were just talking about, that I since I started my business have never worked 40 hours a week. I always have worked less than 40 hours a week. I make a very, especially after I had my daughter, I make a very conscious effort to limit the time that I spend on my business. And so that doesn't that again, just like with all things, looks a lot of different ways. that is about me having like very clear boundaries about the the people and the types of projects that I take on, when I take them on, who I take them on with. I also which is sort of like natural for me because of my operational background, but I have gotten my business to a place over the last 10 years where it is incredibly efficient. So I'm able to do in a lot of ways more as a solo. Than lots of people do with a team. And that's because of the way that I've like structured and systematized and continuously improve the way that I do things. and not just the way that I do things, but like the quality and the type of things that I do. I've had to do a lot of triaging throughout my career so far of I don't do that anymore. Like that's a thing I did five years ago. That's not something that I do now. Let me refer you to someone else that does that thing or let me build that into a larger contract and I will subcontract that out to someone else that does that kind of thing. So there's a lot of bound the word the word I'm using is boundaries, but I really think that it's actually about knowing what you do and who you do it for and then building the systems around that. That is what helps you create the right boundaries. but I think that the other thing is that I try to I tr just like I do with my clients, I also try to have good structural processes in place for myself around strategic thinking. So I do a lot. I do an well, not necessarily quarterly, but I would say maybe three times a year, I will have like a strategic step back with myself where it's like, where are we going? What are we doing here? Why are we doing this? What are the things that we want to do to move this thing forward? And then being able to implement things and operationalize those things in my own business. So it is a delicate balance, I would say. but I try to practice what I preach. And that's not always easy though, too, because I think that what I've learned is that doing oftentimes doing the thing you do well for other people is actually hard to do for yourself. And so I'm also very lucky to have an incredible network of mentors and peers and people where I can be like, I'm dealing with this thing. What do I do about this? Or like, I've been banging my head against the wall about this thing. Maybe I should just let it go. So I think the other piece of that, in addition to having partners who you can partner with on the work, is having peers and colleagues that you can go to if you need support or thought partnership.

Nigel Rawlins (32:50)
It's cut out again, so I'm just waiting.

Sarah (32:53)
No worries. Am I am I back? Am I back? Maybe? Maybe. Okay. Okay, good.

Nigel Rawlins (33:05)
Yes, back now. I I wouldn't have lost anything. So we you mentioned one one of the things I'm interested now is obviously in the age of AI, that's come along in a big way and and some of us are using it in all different sorts of ways. So what do you insist on doing yourself and what systems and AI extend your capability? And you mentioned mentors and peers. Do you have a coach as well?

Sarah (33:37)
So I'll answer that last one first. I do not have an official coach at the moment. I have had various coaches throughout the time that I've run my business. In terms of AI, my philosophy around AI is that it is only as good as what you put into it. So I do leverage AI a lot in my business, but I've also done a ton of work about. Really understanding my brand, understanding my positioning, understanding my clients. And those are the things that I use as the foundation for using AI in my business. So for instance, if I am using AI to help me think about my social media posting or things that I write, it's because I've done so much work of building my brand voice that I know when I put things in and I'm like, help me think about this idea that the first thing AI is doing is it is like, let me make sure that I understand Sarah's voice. Let me make sure that I understand Sarah's positioning. Let me make sure that I understand Sarah's ideal clients. So I think that AI is an incredibly incredible tool, especially for solo business owners. It allows us to compete at a completely different level than we've been able to before. I'm able to do projects that before would have taken me a team of 10 with a team of three. and and all of it is based upon the human skill set, the human intuition, the human context. And so you have to be really, really careful about making sure that your foundation for using AI is built upon the real work that you have done as a human. so that you're really getting the best possible product you can get out of it.

Nigel Rawlins (35:32)
I think that's brilliant. I spoke to Lisa Meisek on the podcast and believe it or not, she's my age. working with AI, she set up a number of AI agents, 'cause she works with search engine optimization, but more focused on how AI is going to find you because you know, the future at the moment is that AI agents are out searching. So that's episode ninety six, I think. but her whole business is based around AI agents. she doesn't need to subcontract, but she's narrowed her focus down and automated her practice. So AI, but the point she made to me was because she's done or she's worked for th twenty-eight years in this industry, she knows rubbish when she sees rubbish. come out of AI and and that's basically what you're saying and what I'm hearing too. The more expert and depth of knowledge you have in your field, you can use AI, but you can also tell when it's kicking out rubbish and you're not going to send that out. Whereas I hate to say it, a lot of probably new people or novices will kick stuff out, but they won't have the depth of ten years that you've had working with people. And that's the biggest danger. I wanna move on to freelance. You you're you're you're pulling freelancers into your group to work with them and I think the future is freelance or independent professionals and solo operators. Looking a few years out and how AI's now doing a lot of the operational work that you used to build by hand, what changes for the independent expert are coming and where where do you defend what they're doing no matter what How good the tools get, because the tools are obviously going to get better and better and better as we're seeing with AI. So what are we going to encourage freelancers or independent consultants or professionals to keep for themselves as things progress?

Sarah (37:37)
Yeah, this is the I just like AI is progressing so quickly, I think I have an answer to this question and like in, you know, two years, the the answer to this question my answer may be obsolete. but the way that I think about AI is that AI is really good at showing you the work that you probably shouldn't have been doing in the first place. so and that I think is at a very basic level, because I think to your point, AI is gonna continue to evolve and do more and more sophisticated work as it progresses. But for right now, I like to think about and actually I know that you had mentioned Anna Burgess Yang before we begin recording. I recently ran an event with Anna and Nellie Yusipova, who is another AI expert. And one of the things that we talked about with AI that actually Anna brought up is AI, the a a very simple, easy use case. And there are much more gray areas here. But an easy use case is using AI to do something that a human shouldn't be doing. And so an example of that is like, I build a lot of project management systems. And oftentimes when I'm building a system for someone, I am taking their existing system and I am like copying and pasting. Copying and pasting, copying and pasting. And now with AI, I don't have to do that anymore. I can take their spreadsheet and I can be like, okay, I am building them a custom system in Notion. I want to, I need you to look at this spreadsheet and I need you to put all of these things in here. I should have never been doing that copying and pasting, right? So that's like a very clear use case of like black and white. Humans probably shouldn't be doing that. AI can do it. In general, I think that people should use AI as a tool to pay attention to how their work should be evolving. AI should be pushing us to the edge of what humans should only be able to do. And I think if we are looking at it in that way, it is going to be fundamentally disruptive. There are things in my work where I don't do them anymore because AI does it for me. But that has helped me to push myself in my own capacity towards, okay, if AI can do this, what is the thing that I'm supposed to do? and a good example of that, a a great example of this is I run these what I call listening tours with my clients every other year, every three years or so, just to like get a better touch point of like how are my clients thinking about things? What do I need to be thinking about in my own positioning and my own offers and my own services? And I took all of those listening to our conversations that I recorded and I created a project in Claude and then I use a process that I developed to sort of go through them and pull out the learnings. pull out the key pieces and update my positioning. I also then took that information and had a meeting with my brand strategist. And I was like, here's what I'm finding. Here's where I've analyzed all these interviews. Here are the things I'm coming up against. And this is what I was speaking to before. Being able to get that sort of outside support from someone is also running poor. And so I took what I had, put it through Claude, I did my own analysis of it, and then I took it to my expert where I was like, okay, now How should we be thinking about updating my positioning? So that's another good example of like it's not, it's also not completely handing something off to AI. It's like where are the pieces where AI is the right thing to be in the loop? And where do you need to make sure you're keeping the human in the loop in order to not just maintain the quality, but also maintain the things that like you want to continue to be? doing. Like there are lots of things that I enjoy doing that I could completely outsource to AI. And I'm like, no, I really I want to hold on to that thing. Like I like doing that thing. So all that's to say I think using AI as a lens for what is the work that you really should have never been doing in the first place. And then at the next level of that is how is this pushing you towards the next version of the work that you should be doing? the thing that is irreplaceable. Which again will continue to evolve as AI evolves as well.

Nigel Rawlins (41:57)
That's actually a brilliant exposition of it. one of the things some of the podcast guests have been telling me that they have tried to use AI, got all muddled up and found that by talking to an expert they solved the problem in half an hour. And and I had a similar situation like that. I was doing some search engine optimization of websites and using Gemini at the time and it was taking hours and hours and it wasn't working. I ended up up up buying a one hundred dollar plugin. Solved the problem for every website I look after. It it was just instant, automatic, and I found it. Whereas I was spending hours, and this is the danger, you've got to really, really look at that. Now tell me, you mentioned your parents running a business, and when you first set out, you didn't want to run a business for yourself. How how are you thinking about that now with hindsight that you have been running a business for 10 years? Is it what you you know, the thing you wanted to avoid? Have you avoided it?

Sarah (42:59)
that's a great question. I mean, I think the the key thing that I found with my parents' business is that they had employees and that made them automatically responsible for other people's livelihoods, which they took very seriously when they had down seasons or the market shifted, they always paid their employees instead of paying themselves. And so, but that was like a something that I was like, like that feels like a big responsi I don't know if I want to be responsible for someone else's livelihood. so I have maintained that in my business because I you I'm a solo. I do partner with other people who are business owners in their own right, but I do not have employees. and again, that's not the right path for everyone. Like I i I think that People who run businesses with employees and do right by them are incredibly important for our economy and our society. But that was never my path. so that I think was the biggest piece that I have been able to maintain. And then on the flip side, I think that the thing that I also realized is like they would have like just the incredible opportunity and the freedom that running like the double-edged sword of the responsibility and the freedom. Like my mom was with me all summer long. Like they she worked, but they worked in our house. Their office was upstairs. Like she was always there. She was o my parents were always there after school. even if they were working some of the time, like that's a very different reality than for a lot of people. And so I think there's a lot of things that they were able to do for me that now I realize was because they ran their own business. even with all of the like difficult things that come with running a business alongside it. Are we

Nigel Rawlins (45:16)
Yes, you are now.

Sarah (45:17)
Ha ha ha.

Nigel Rawlins (45:19)
It's funny. I just you probably notice I'm going, just wait. Okay. Well, we're probably coming towards the end now, so I'm gonna ask you about how who you want to work with. So Sarah, we're probably coming to the end now. Is there something else you would like to mention? And then I would like to talk about how you can help other people and how they can contact you?

Sarah (45:45)
I mean, I guess my my closing argument is always that I think that running your own business, being an entrepreneur, solopreneur, any type of business owner is really good. I think that people learn a lot about themselves and about how to be better citizens and better humans and better. Parents and partners and community members by being business owners. You are sort of forced to examine yourself in a way that a lot of people are not forced to when other people tell you like what to do, how to do it, why to do it, where to do it, when to do it. and so that kind of that kind of agency and autonomy over yourself and your work naturally just leads to a different type of human. And so That is always the thing that I come back to is I fundamentally think that independent work and owning your own business is good for society. And so no matter how hard it is, I hope that everyone listening to this hangs in there and sees those kind of intrinsic rewards behind it.

Nigel Rawlins (46:58)
And I'll be honest, with people like you out there advising, I can see that, you know, it's fantastic. It's you're very, very articulate about all of this. So who needs you, let's to start with, say, freelancers who maybe aren't in the position to hire you as a CIO, COO. how do they find out more about you?

Sarah (47:24)
So the Solo Printer Collaborative, it you if you go to my website for n fruitioninitiatives dot com, you can see all the things that I do and the Soloprint Solo Printer Collaborative will be front and center there. that is really for freelancers and consultants, usually like really like true solos who are at that kind of juncture where they have built something real. You're in that place where you're going from that jill of all trades to that. place where like, maybe I need to start building the business around this business. and that is the place where we do that. So that is who that is for. Yeah.

Nigel Rawlins (48:06)
And the the t the person who needs a COO, who are they? Who would you prefer? Contact you and say, Look, c can you help me?

Sarah (48:16)
Yep. So those are the folks I would say you are scaling in a way that feels unsustainable. usually what I hear from folks who are at that juncture is they're like, I wish I could just clone myself, or I'm working all the time, or I don't have time to think about the business around this business, or it's not my skill set building the business or building the structure around the business is not. my skill set or my sweet spot or it's I hate doing that. I just want to focus on what I do best. So those folks are often in the 500K plus mark in terms of gross income in their business. And I work with people anywhere from like true solos who have, you know, potentially a variety of subcontractors that they work with upwards to teams of like up to 20, I would say. And y those are really all of the people that I work with are really like service based businesses. So these are people who are like doing direct service for their clients, professional service providers.

Nigel Rawlins (49:27)
That's fantastic. This has been a wonderful conversation and I think it's really, really pointing out that, you know, if you were working for yourself as an independent professional or freelancer, solopreneur, it's really, really important to hear these things and and to focus on not just the business, but you know, what you want out of life. So Sarah, we've got your details. I'll put them into I'll put them into the show notes and you're also on LinkedIn where people can find you. Okay. So Sarah, thank you very

Sarah (50:02)
Yep, you can find me on LinkedIn.

Nigel Rawlins (50:03)
much yep. So Sarah, thank you very much for

Sarah (50:05)
Sorry, I think we're just talking over each other.

Nigel Rawlins (50:09)
Yeah, yeah, well I'll start that again. Sarah, where can they find you on LinkedIn?

Sarah (50:14)
I'm on LinkedIn under Sarah Durand. The like LinkedIn linked is Sarah Durand C O O.

Nigel Rawlins (50:23)
Fantastic. So, Sarah, thank you very much for being my guest. You've been very articulate and a wonderful, wonderful guest.

Sarah (50:32)
Thank you so much for having me. This was very fun.

Nigel Rawlins (50:36)
Okay, so hang on, I'll just turn it all off. I'll just make sure it's all uploaded. I I don't think I would have lost anything, so I'll stop.